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  #21  
Old July 31st 19, 09:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Frank -

On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 7:19:45 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 9:57:19 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 9:15:07 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/29/2019 9:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 8:55:26 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/28/2019 9:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 10:36:56 PM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:41:35 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:


So my question to you is - How is it possible for a tensiometer to work
on a small, thin double butted spoke and give the same reading on a much
larger and stiffer aero spoke?

You asked for tension. This is a measurement that is not related to
thickness. E.G. Nylong and steel strings ona guitar can provide the same
note. Perhaps you are thinking of the tension eqivaslent to the tone
(depth of sound).

We're in agreement about that - but the problem is that plucking a spoke on the clincher offers a much higher note than on the tubeless. The "correct" spoke lengths that the factory sent me are 10 mm longer than the one's I'm measuring on the wheel itself.

Andrew do you sell aero spokes and nipples?


Maybe, it depends.
Mavic type? Campagnolo type? S-head Hoshi? Slot-the-hubshell
type DT? Straight-pull? Not so aero ACI/ AeroAlpina?
Stainless? Aluminum? Carbon?

Some yes some no and not all lengths.


I didn't know they made aluminum spokes. Anyway they are J-bend spokes, as aero as you can get, as a test to see if I'm on the right track, 12 spokes 244 mm, another 12 spokes 248 mm and 20 spokes 246 mm. If it doesn't improve this wheelset I will accept defeat and go back to the clinchers which work almost perfectly. If It is better to double that order since I have two sets of wheels then that would also be good.


"J" like a normal headed spoke? That means it's either
not-very-aero like an AeroAlpina or the hub shell has to be
slotted like a DT.

For Aero Alpina write to Mr Grinter at Well Spoken Wheels in
Illinois.

We have those lengths in Hoshi Aero with S-head:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/HOSHIBLD.JPG

1.0x2.35mm stainless

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Yes, they are normally headed spokes with slotted hub.


DT Aerolite? https://www.dtswiss.com/en/products/...s/dt-aerolite/ They're easy enough to come by. I used one in a HED wheel as a replacement. They're ridiculously expensive, though. https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...s.php?id=16567 Spokes in general have gotten ridiculously expensive.

-- Jay Beattie.


I find aero spokes from a Chinese company. Still expensive but not like DT Swiss of that American company that charges $2.50 PER spoke.
Ads
  #22  
Old July 31st 19, 10:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,424
Default Frank -

On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 5:49:15 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 5:34:17 PM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:53:35 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:22:29 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 10:19:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Spokes in general have gotten ridiculously expensive.

I've noticed that, and wondered about the economics. Is it due to the takeover
of machine built wheels, reducing the demand for "craft" wheel building and so
reducing the economies of scale? And does the much wider variety of spoke
designs also contribute?

Just curious. As with groceries, I can afford them. I just wish my next
wheel building project would somehow, by coincidence, require some of the boxes
of spokes I already own.

Good luck on reusing old spokes or NOS spokes. Most modern rims have smaller ERDs due to aero rim shaping. I still have a bunch of 310mm DT spokes I bought for some 4X Weinmann Concave wheels I built 40 years ago. I'll never use those, except for shish kebab skewers. I suppose I could spend a $ zillion on a Phil spoke machine. If you're lucky, you can find one used for $3K.

If you find a cheap source for spokes, let me know. All of my sources have dried up.

-- Jay Beattie.


I got a 50-lb (or so it feels) box of spokes for $5 when the los gatos bike shop closed doors. DT and wheelsmith. In bundles of 50 or so, in 1 or 2 mm increments from 260-something to 300-something. What length do you need? many are straight tho not double-butted.


Dude, you're sitting on a gold mine. You could retire on your spoke collection.

-- Jay Beattie.


How about my mapping software, which I never figured out how to monetize?
http://www.tinyurl.com/dougsrace2

Note that 15 yrs later there is -still- no solution to the lost hiker problem - still no device which has the whole country in hi-res, preloaded, and a compass, pointing to the car.
Got any $$ to invest? It should be on the handlebars, and on the background of fitbit watches, and blah blah blah

-dkl
  #23  
Old July 31st 19, 10:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Frank -

On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:22:29 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 10:19:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Spokes in general have gotten ridiculously expensive.


I've noticed that, and wondered about the economics. Is it due to the takeover
of machine built wheels, reducing the demand for "craft" wheel building and so
reducing the economies of scale? And does the much wider variety of spoke
designs also contribute?

Just curious. As with groceries, I can afford them. I just wish my next
wheel building project would somehow, by coincidence, require some of the boxes
of spokes I already own.

- Frank Krygowski


With the old aluminum box section rims most of the spokes were the same length give or take. Now the difference it huge.
  #24  
Old July 31st 19, 11:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Frank -

On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 13:58:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 7:19:45 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 9:57:19 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 9:15:07 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/29/2019 9:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 8:55:26 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/28/2019 9:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 10:36:56 PM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:41:35 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:


So my question to you is - How is it possible for a tensiometer to work
on a small, thin double butted spoke and give the same reading on a much
larger and stiffer aero spoke?

You asked for tension. This is a measurement that is not related to
thickness. E.G. Nylong and steel strings ona guitar can provide the same
note. Perhaps you are thinking of the tension eqivaslent to the tone
(depth of sound).

We're in agreement about that - but the problem is that plucking a spoke on the clincher offers a much higher note than on the tubeless. The "correct" spoke lengths that the factory sent me are 10 mm longer than the one's I'm measuring on the wheel itself.

Andrew do you sell aero spokes and nipples?


Maybe, it depends.
Mavic type? Campagnolo type? S-head Hoshi? Slot-the-hubshell
type DT? Straight-pull? Not so aero ACI/ AeroAlpina?
Stainless? Aluminum? Carbon?

Some yes some no and not all lengths.


I didn't know they made aluminum spokes. Anyway they are J-bend spokes, as aero as you can get, as a test to see if I'm on the right track, 12 spokes 244 mm, another 12 spokes 248 mm and 20 spokes 246 mm. If it doesn't improve this wheelset I will accept defeat and go back to the clinchers which work almost perfectly. If It is better to double that order since I have two sets of wheels then that would also be good.


"J" like a normal headed spoke? That means it's either
not-very-aero like an AeroAlpina or the hub shell has to be
slotted like a DT.

For Aero Alpina write to Mr Grinter at Well Spoken Wheels in
Illinois.

We have those lengths in Hoshi Aero with S-head:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/HOSHIBLD.JPG

1.0x2.35mm stainless

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Yes, they are normally headed spokes with slotted hub.


DT Aerolite? https://www.dtswiss.com/en/products/...s/dt-aerolite/ They're easy enough to come by. I used one in a HED wheel as a replacement. They're ridiculously expensive, though. https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...s.php?id=16567 Spokes in general have gotten ridiculously expensive.

-- Jay Beattie.


I find aero spokes from a Chinese company. Still expensive but not like DT Swiss of that American company that charges $2.50 PER spoke.


Ah, but the guy with the blond comb over is telling you to "Buy
American!"

What are you? some sort of back sliding Democrat?

--
cheers,

John B.

  #25  
Old August 3rd 19, 04:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 840
Default Frank -

On 7/30/2019 9:22 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 10:19:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Spokes in general have gotten ridiculously expensive.


I've noticed that, and wondered about the economics. Is it due to the takeover
of machine built wheels, reducing the demand for "craft" wheel building and so
reducing the economies of scale? And does the much wider variety of spoke
designs also contribute?

Just curious. As with groceries, I can afford them. I just wish my next
wheel building project would somehow, by coincidence, require some of the boxes
of spokes I already own.


I've been wondering the same thing. I've assumed that fewer retail
sales of spokes makes the "sunk" or inventory costs of stocking varied
lengths more and more prohibitive (or at least /unattractive/ to
dealers/distributors).

I am seeing more and more shops with spoke threader/cutters (two in my
town!), but that just swaps labor charges for inventory costs.

Mark J.
  #26  
Old August 3rd 19, 04:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Frank -

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 11:13:27 AM UTC-4, Mark J. wrote:
On 7/30/2019 9:22 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 10:19:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Spokes in general have gotten ridiculously expensive.


I've noticed that, and wondered about the economics. Is it due to the takeover
of machine built wheels, reducing the demand for "craft" wheel building and so
reducing the economies of scale? And does the much wider variety of spoke
designs also contribute?

Just curious. As with groceries, I can afford them. I just wish my next
wheel building project would somehow, by coincidence, require some of the boxes
of spokes I already own.


I've been wondering the same thing. I've assumed that fewer retail
sales of spokes makes the "sunk" or inventory costs of stocking varied
lengths more and more prohibitive (or at least /unattractive/ to
dealers/distributors).

I am seeing more and more shops with spoke threader/cutters (two in my
town!), but that just swaps labor charges for inventory costs.

Mark J.


I've read about, and I believe it's been discussed on this newsgroup,rolled threads versus cut threads and the consensus was that cut threads made for a weaker product than did rolled threads. Is this true of thread cutting devices bicycle shops use to cut threads and the resulting cut threads on spokes?

Cheers
  #27  
Old August 3rd 19, 04:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Frank -

On 8/3/2019 10:13 AM, Mark J. wrote:
On 7/30/2019 9:22 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 10:19:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie
wrote:
Spokes in general have gotten ridiculously expensive.


I've noticed that, and wondered about the economics. Is it
due to the takeover
of machine built wheels, reducing the demand for "craft"
wheel building and so
reducing the economies of scale? And does the much wider
variety of spoke
designs also contribute?

Just curious. As with groceries, I can afford them. I just
wish my next
wheel building project would somehow, by coincidence,
require some of the boxes
of spokes I already own.


I've been wondering the same thing. I've assumed that fewer
retail sales of spokes makes the "sunk" or inventory costs
of stocking varied lengths more and more prohibitive (or at
least /unattractive/ to dealers/distributors).

I am seeing more and more shops with spoke threader/cutters
(two in my town!), but that just swaps labor charges for
inventory costs.

Mark J.


More than that.
Our industry distribution network has been crucified such
that timely delivery for small quantities such as a box of
spokes is unreliable when even possible.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #28  
Old August 3rd 19, 04:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Frank -

On 8/3/2019 10:20 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 11:13:27 AM UTC-4, Mark J. wrote:
On 7/30/2019 9:22 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 10:19:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Spokes in general have gotten ridiculously expensive.

I've noticed that, and wondered about the economics. Is it due to the takeover
of machine built wheels, reducing the demand for "craft" wheel building and so
reducing the economies of scale? And does the much wider variety of spoke
designs also contribute?

Just curious. As with groceries, I can afford them. I just wish my next
wheel building project would somehow, by coincidence, require some of the boxes
of spokes I already own.


I've been wondering the same thing. I've assumed that fewer retail
sales of spokes makes the "sunk" or inventory costs of stocking varied
lengths more and more prohibitive (or at least /unattractive/ to
dealers/distributors).

I am seeing more and more shops with spoke threader/cutters (two in my
town!), but that just swaps labor charges for inventory costs.

Mark J.


I've read about, and I believe it's been discussed on this newsgroup,rolled threads versus cut threads and the consensus was that cut threads made for a weaker product than did rolled threads. Is this true of thread cutting devices bicycle shops use to cut threads and the resulting cut threads on spokes?

Cheers


No one in their right mind cuts that thread. They're
virtually all rolled. The material cannot yield a proper
thread form when cut. Look at any spoke with a magnifier
and it will be obvious.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #29  
Old August 3rd 19, 04:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Frank -

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 11:24:37 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/3/2019 10:20 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 11:13:27 AM UTC-4, Mark J. wrote:
On 7/30/2019 9:22 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 10:19:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Spokes in general have gotten ridiculously expensive.

I've noticed that, and wondered about the economics. Is it due to the takeover
of machine built wheels, reducing the demand for "craft" wheel building and so
reducing the economies of scale? And does the much wider variety of spoke
designs also contribute?

Just curious. As with groceries, I can afford them. I just wish my next
wheel building project would somehow, by coincidence, require some of the boxes
of spokes I already own.

I've been wondering the same thing. I've assumed that fewer retail
sales of spokes makes the "sunk" or inventory costs of stocking varied
lengths more and more prohibitive (or at least /unattractive/ to
dealers/distributors).

I am seeing more and more shops with spoke threader/cutters (two in my
town!), but that just swaps labor charges for inventory costs.

Mark J.


I've read about, and I believe it's been discussed on this newsgroup,rolled threads versus cut threads and the consensus was that cut threads made for a weaker product than did rolled threads. Is this true of thread cutting devices bicycle shops use to cut threads and the resulting cut threads on spokes?

Cheers


No one in their right mind cuts that thread. They're
virtually all rolled. The material cannot yield a proper
thread form when cut. Look at any spoke with a magnifier
and it will be obvious.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


So, you're saying that the spoke threading device used in a bicycle shop roll the threads not cut them on a spoke?

Cheers
  #30  
Old August 3rd 19, 05:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Frank -

On 8/3/2019 11:57 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 11:24:37 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/3/2019 10:20 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 11:13:27 AM UTC-4, Mark J. wrote:
On 7/30/2019 9:22 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 10:19:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Spokes in general have gotten ridiculously expensive.

I've noticed that, and wondered about the economics. Is it due to the takeover
of machine built wheels, reducing the demand for "craft" wheel building and so
reducing the economies of scale? And does the much wider variety of spoke
designs also contribute?

Just curious. As with groceries, I can afford them. I just wish my next
wheel building project would somehow, by coincidence, require some of the boxes
of spokes I already own.

I've been wondering the same thing. I've assumed that fewer retail
sales of spokes makes the "sunk" or inventory costs of stocking varied
lengths more and more prohibitive (or at least /unattractive/ to
dealers/distributors).

I am seeing more and more shops with spoke threader/cutters (two in my
town!), but that just swaps labor charges for inventory costs.

Mark J.

I've read about, and I believe it's been discussed on this newsgroup,rolled threads versus cut threads and the consensus was that cut threads made for a weaker product than did rolled threads. Is this true of thread cutting devices bicycle shops use to cut threads and the resulting cut threads on spokes?

Cheers


No one in their right mind cuts that thread. They're
virtually all rolled. The material cannot yield a proper
thread form when cut. Look at any spoke with a magnifier
and it will be obvious.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


So, you're saying that the spoke threading device used in a bicycle shop roll the threads not cut them on a spoke?


Yes. Or in the case of the non-Phil version I borrowed, it _attempted_
to roll the threads.

On any threaded fastener, rolled threads are stronger than cut threads,
especially against fatigue.

--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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