Interesting ads re 6-speed downtube shifters

I've been looking for some Shimano N600 Index downtube shifters. In my search I've come across many ads touting different shifters as being both 6-speed and 7-speed.

Now according to my memory, which may be faulty, 7-speed shifters do NOT play nice with 6 speed freewheels or cassettes due to different spacing. Is my memory correct? Remember we are discussing SHIMANO not Suntour or anyone else.

Cheers

On 8/19/2020 5:23 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I've been looking for some Shimano N600 Index downtube shifters. In my search I've come across many ads touting different shifters as being both 6-speed and 7-speed.

Now according to my memory, which may be faulty, 7-speed shifters do NOT play nice with 6 speed freewheels or cassettes due to different spacing. Is my memory correct? Remember we are discussing SHIMANO not Suntour or anyone else.

Cheers


Sheldon has an answer, of sorts: Second table on the page.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.html

My recollection is that 6-speed Shimano indexed was what Sheldon calls
"Regular" 6-speed. 5.5mm center-to-center. Shimano 7-speed is 5.0mm.

Of course that's at the cassette; maybe some mis-matched rear derailleur
would translate a 7-speed shifter's cable pull into 6-speed pulley
movement, but that seems unlikely.

Mark J.

On Wednesday, 19 August 2020 20:24:02 UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I've been looking for some Shimano N600 Index downtube shifters. In my search I've come across many ads touting different shifters as being both 6-speed and 7-speed.

Now according to my memory, which may be faulty, 7-speed shifters do NOT play nice with 6 speed freewheels or cassettes due to different spacing. Is my memory correct? Remember we are discussing SHIMANO not Suntour or anyone else.

Cheers

I looked through my spares box and found a pair of Light Action 6-speed downtube index shifters. They'll work until I find a pair of silver N600 downtube index shifters at a reasonable price for me.

Cheers

On 8/20/2020 12:41 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, 19 August 2020 20:24:02 UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I've been looking for some Shimano N600 Index downtube shifters. In my search I've come across many ads touting different shifters as being both 6-speed and 7-speed.

Now according to my memory, which may be faulty, 7-speed shifters do NOT play nice with 6 speed freewheels or cassettes due to different spacing. Is my memory correct? Remember we are discussing SHIMANO not Suntour or anyone else.

Cheers

I looked through my spares box and found a pair of Light Action 6-speed downtube index shifters. They'll work until I find a pair of silver N600 downtube index shifters at a reasonable price for me.

Cheers


The indexing cartridge inside your lever is the same part as
inside the SL-6208 so it will shift well. Aesthetics are a
different discussion.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, 20 August 2020 17:11:45 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/20/2020 12:41 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, 19 August 2020 20:24:02 UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I've been looking for some Shimano N600 Index downtube shifters. In my search I've come across many ads touting different shifters as being both 6-speed and 7-speed.

Now according to my memory, which may be faulty, 7-speed shifters do NOT play nice with 6 speed freewheels or cassettes due to different spacing. Is my memory correct? Remember we are discussing SHIMANO not Suntour or anyone else.

Cheers

I looked through my spares box and found a pair of Light Action 6-speed downtube index shifters. They'll work until I find a pair of silver N600 downtube index shifters at a reasonable price for me.

Cheers


The indexing cartridge inside your lever is the same part as
inside the SL-6208 so it will shift well. Aesthetics are a
different discussion.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

It works but I do like to have a complete N600 groupset.

Cheers

On Thu, 20 Aug 2020 10:41:03 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, 19 August 2020 20:24:02 UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I've been looking for some Shimano N600 Index downtube shifters. In my search I've come across many ads touting different shifters as being both 6-speed and 7-speed.

Now according to my memory, which may be faulty, 7-speed shifters do NOT play nice with 6 speed freewheels or cassettes due to different spacing. Is my memory correct? Remember we are discussing SHIMANO not Suntour or anyone else.

Cheers

I looked through my spares box and found a pair of Light Action 6-speed downtube index shifters. They'll work until I find a pair of silver N600 downtube index shifters at a reasonable price for me.

Cheers

Just as a comment .I had indexed downtube shifterss on a 7 speed bike
and was quite happy with them. Some years later I built a bike with a
9 speed cluster and not having any indexed 9 speed shifters simply
used the 7 speed shifters switched over to friction only. I had
anticipated having all sorts of problemns friction shifting a 9 speed
but found that after a couple of hours of riding it became quite a
normal sort of thing to do.
--

Cheers,

John B.

On 8/20/2020 7:14 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 20 Aug 2020 10:41:03 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, 19 August 2020 20:24:02 UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I've been looking for some Shimano N600 Index downtube shifters. In my search I've come across many ads touting different shifters as being both 6-speed and 7-speed.

Now according to my memory, which may be faulty, 7-speed shifters do NOT play nice with 6 speed freewheels or cassettes due to different spacing. Is my memory correct? Remember we are discussing SHIMANO not Suntour or anyone else.

Cheers

I looked through my spares box and found a pair of Light Action 6-speed downtube index shifters. They'll work until I find a pair of silver N600 downtube index shifters at a reasonable price for me.

Cheers

Just as a comment .I had indexed downtube shifterss on a 7 speed bike
and was quite happy with them. Some years later I built a bike with a
9 speed cluster and not having any indexed 9 speed shifters simply
used the 7 speed shifters switched over to friction only. I had
anticipated having all sorts of problemns friction shifting a 9 speed
but found that after a couple of hours of riding it became quite a
normal sort of thing to do.

I agree, friciton shifting nine speeds is not a problem at all. My Bike
Friday has Shimano bar end shifters that function either as index or
friction. It has long, totally enclosed shift cables. For a long time,
the index shifting would be out of adjustment after unfolding the bike,
especially if it had been folded a long time.

So I'd just change the shifter to friction mode and ride for a while.
The misadjustment would eventually cure itself. But there was no trouble
using friction mode.

The development of index shifting required changes in cable housing,
derailleur geometry, etc. to get the system to be much more consistent
than it was pre-index. I think those changes help even when in friction
mode.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, August 19, 2020 at 5:24:02 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I've been looking for some Shimano N600 Index downtube shifters. In my search I've come across many ads touting different shifters as being both 6-speed and 7-speed.

Now according to my memory, which may be faulty, 7-speed shifters do NOT play nice with 6 speed freewheels or cassettes due to different spacing. Is my memory correct? Remember we are discussing SHIMANO not Suntour or anyone else.


Shimano's 1982 Catalog lists both a 600 AX and 600 EX series, with the EX having 6200 and AX having 6300 part numbers. That generation of 600EX is commonly referred to as Arabesque, and was friction only.

Arabesque was followed by what was called 'New Shimano 600EX' in 1983, and is what think of when I see 'N600'. This had a more modern look, with generally 6207 part numbers, but was still friction only.

Indexing didn't come along until 1986 with 6208 part numbers for the new shifters, rear derailleur and freewheel. I don't believe Shimano still used the 'New' word with these parts, and just referred to them as '600EX SIS', but these parts were used together with N600 parts for everything else. This was strictly 6-speed indexing, not 7. The new derailleur has a black panel inset in its face, framed between dark grey painted edges above and below. The non-index N600 derailleur it replaced had a plain flat face, either in silver or dark gray paint.

1987, Shimano introduced 600 Ultegra, which was the 6400 series of parts. This was when 7-speed support was introduced, but they kept 6 speed compatability. The SL-6400 shift lever indexes 7 speeds, but there was also a plastic insert that would fit into the cable groove which increases cable pull to that needed for 6 speeds.

So yes, technically Shimano did have 6/7 speed 600 shifters. But it was the Ultegra shifters, not N600, and the lever doesn't simultaneously support both but rather depends on an easily lost part to support 6 speeds.


The 6-speed 6208 shifters have an Achilles heel. The indexing is provided by a removable module (that's interchangeable with Dura-Ace DT shifters). The module engages the spacer at the base of the shifter by 6 tiny little fingers that are easily broken off and when that happens, the shifter will want to spin on the shifter boss. So if you find a part of used levers, make sure the fingers are intact before buying.

Dura-ACE shifters engage the flats at the tip of the shifter boss, so don't seem to suffer the same failure, though I think all but the earliest of them also have the fingers.

Later shifters have a captive shift mechanism where those fingers are still there, but I seem to remember them as being vestigial. I think the primary indexing engagement to the boss is the large tab at the top of the frame washer that earlier friction levers used as a travel stop. The 600EX and Dura-Ace shift modules can't do this as they're limited to a smaller diameter to go through the lever and can't reach the stop.

On Wednesday, August 19, 2020 at 5:24:02 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I've been looking for some Shimano N600 Index downtube shifters. In my search I've come across many ads touting different shifters as being both 6-speed and 7-speed.

Now according to my memory, which may be faulty, 7-speed shifters do NOT play nice with 6 speed freewheels or cassettes due to different spacing. Is my memory correct? Remember we are discussing SHIMANO not Suntour or anyone else.

Cheers
While digging around I just tripped over one of those plastic levered Shimano SIS 6 speed clamp levers. If you want it it is yours. Just forward me your address.

On Wednesday, August 19, 2020 at 6:02:03 PM UTC-7, Mark J. wrote:
On 8/19/2020 5:23 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I've been looking for some Shimano N600 Index downtube shifters. In my search I've come across many ads touting different shifters as being both 6-speed and 7-speed.

Now according to my memory, which may be faulty, 7-speed shifters do NOT play nice with 6 speed freewheels or cassettes due to different spacing. Is my memory correct? Remember we are discussing SHIMANO not Suntour or anyone else.

Cheers

Sheldon has an answer, of sorts: Second table on the page.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.html

My recollection is that 6-speed Shimano indexed was what Sheldon calls
"Regular" 6-speed. 5.5mm center-to-center. Shimano 7-speed is 5.0mm.

Of course that's at the cassette; maybe some mis-matched rear derailleur
would translate a 7-speed shifter's cable pull into 6-speed pulley
movement, but that seems unlikely.

Mark J.

D'OH !! So my super-cool Modolo Morpheus brifters aint gone work with the as-new Maruishi TA18 I just bought. Until I ditch the 6speed freewheel.
Well, that's not too terrible. I aint hung up on keeping the freewheel or the 6speed anyway.