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Cycling at schools - bike size/saddle height



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 24th 08, 10:08 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Mark[_3_]
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Posts: 290
Default Cycling at schools - bike size/saddle height

Hi,

My daughter has recently done a cycling course, run by the LA, at
school. However, on the latest session, she was not allowed out on
the road because the organisers believed the bike was too big or the
saddle was too high. They told me that they were worried that she
could not stop safely and she might go over the handlebars when
braking!

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.

I had adjusted it (using the same system as I use for me) so that her
leg is just slightly bent when the peddle is at the bottom. She
clears the top tube when off the saddle with both feet on the ground.

I had recently moved her to a larger bike (24") because the next size
down (20") was much too small.

Any thoughts?

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Owing to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups
(")_(") I am blocking most articles posted from there.
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  #2  
Old April 24th 08, 10:44 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
[email protected]
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Posts: 12
Default Cycling at schools - bike size/saddle height

On 24 Apr, 10:08, Mark wrote:
My daughter has recently done a cycling course, run by the LA, at
school. However, on the latest session, she was not allowed out on
the road because the organisers believed the bike was too big or the
saddle was too high. They told me that they were worried that she
could not stop safely and she might go over the handlebars when
braking!

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.


Reading that hurts my knees. On my hybrid I have my saddle so that my
leg is straight when the pedal is at the bottom. Anything lower gives
me sore legs and is noticeably slower. I've had this position
recommended to me by people who know more about bikes than I do. The
handlebars are about level.

I haven't once come close to going over the handlebars when braking;
in fact, I've got used to being carried slightly forwards by my own
momentum just after the bike stops, which drops me nicely into a
standing position over the frame. (This will be a bad habit to be in
if I ever switch to toeclips, I know.)

Sounds like that rule is making cycling a lot harder than it should
be. Unless it's different for kids, I suppose.

Robin Johnson
  #3  
Old April 24th 08, 10:53 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
David Hansen
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Posts: 2,206
Default Cycling at schools - bike size/saddle height

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:08:51 +0100 someone who may be Mark
wrote this:-

My daughter has recently done a cycling course, run by the LA, at
school. However, on the latest session, she was not allowed out on
the road because the organisers believed the bike was too big or the
saddle was too high. They told me that they were worried that she
could not stop safely and she might go over the handlebars when
braking!

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.

I had adjusted it (using the same system as I use for me) so that her
leg is just slightly bent when the peddle is at the bottom. She
clears the top tube when off the saddle with both feet on the ground.


I think that the council officials don't know what they are talking
about, which is not unusual with bikes. The only reason that I can
think of for putting both feet on the ground while sitting in the
saddle is to use the feet as not very effective brakes. Far better
to use the brakes, I assume that your daughter was able to operate
these effectively and thus come to a stop safely.

As for going over the handlebars, is there a steady stream of people
riding bikes with drop handlebars doing this?

I would complain long and loud. Council officials are generally too
arrogant to admit they made a mistake, apologise and rectify the
problem they caused. However, they do sometimes secretly change
things after feedback.

Was this the last session, or are there more to come?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
  #5  
Old April 24th 08, 10:58 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Doki
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Posts: 460
Default Cycling at schools - bike size/saddle height


"Mark" wrote in message
...
Hi,

My daughter has recently done a cycling course, run by the LA, at
school. However, on the latest session, she was not allowed out on
the road because the organisers believed the bike was too big or the
saddle was too high. They told me that they were worried that she
could not stop safely and she might go over the handlebars when
braking!

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.

I had adjusted it (using the same system as I use for me) so that her
leg is just slightly bent when the peddle is at the bottom. She
clears the top tube when off the saddle with both feet on the ground.

I had recently moved her to a larger bike (24") because the next size
down (20") was much too small.

Any thoughts?


They're wrong. If I were you I'd print out a setup guide from Sheldon Brown
or similar (or perhaps 2 or three) proving that saddle height is fairly
vital to pedalling efficiency, and that it's used by all serious cyclists,
even mountain bikers (barring your jump and downhill boys) who stand far
more chance of going over the bars.

Enough standover height for both feet on the ground off the saddle is
sensible, but all both feet on the ground on the saddle will achieve is
knackered joints and tired kids. It is a fairly common fear (not liking not
being able to put both feet down whilst seated) amongst people who aren't
used to cycling IME.

  #7  
Old April 24th 08, 11:20 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Mark[_3_]
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Posts: 290
Default Cycling at schools - bike size/saddle height

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:53:24 +0100, David Hansen
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:08:51 +0100 someone who may be Mark
wrote this:-

My daughter has recently done a cycling course, run by the LA, at
school. However, on the latest session, she was not allowed out on
the road because the organisers believed the bike was too big or the
saddle was too high. They told me that they were worried that she
could not stop safely and she might go over the handlebars when
braking!

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.

I had adjusted it (using the same system as I use for me) so that her
leg is just slightly bent when the peddle is at the bottom. She
clears the top tube when off the saddle with both feet on the ground.


I think that the council officials don't know what they are talking
about, which is not unusual with bikes. The only reason that I can
think of for putting both feet on the ground while sitting in the
saddle is to use the feet as not very effective brakes. Far better
to use the brakes, I assume that your daughter was able to operate
these effectively and thus come to a stop safely.


Yes, but she is not yet strong enough to lock the wheels under
braking.

As for going over the handlebars, is there a steady stream of people
riding bikes with drop handlebars doing this?


I don't think any of them have drop handlebars. Most kids have
Mountain bikes (I mean BSOs).

I would complain long and loud. Council officials are generally too
arrogant to admit they made a mistake, apologise and rectify the
problem they caused. However, they do sometimes secretly change
things after feedback.

Was this the last session, or are there more to come?


There are more to come, but I was told she would not be allowed to use
the same bike on the road.

I thought I was right, but it is good to make sure. I will be writing
a letter to the school or maybe the LA.

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Owing to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups
(")_(") I am blocking most articles posted from there.
  #8  
Old April 24th 08, 11:26 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Peter Clinch
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Posts: 4,852
Default Cycling at schools - bike size/saddle height

Mark wrote:

My daughter has recently done a cycling course, run by the LA, at
school. However, on the latest session, she was not allowed out on
the road because the organisers believed the bike was too big or the
saddle was too high. They told me that they were worried that she
could not stop safely and she might go over the handlebars when
braking!

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.

I had adjusted it (using the same system as I use for me) so that her
leg is just slightly bent when the peddle is at the bottom. She
clears the top tube when off the saddle with both feet on the ground.


With my cycle trainer's hat on, once you're up to speed the method
you've used is what we were taught to teach for a good first base on
saddle adjustment (and what i've used myself for years, and what is on
the http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pj...ke.htm#fitting
page of the Cycling and Your Child website, which has been audited by
urc including active cycle trainers). A little fettling up and down
from there may be in order to suit personal taste and physiology, but
it's a good start.

But it does assume you're up to speed. Now, I can't say from here
whether I think your daughter qualifies as "up to speed", but at the
start of a course it would be a reasonable assumption that she might not
be and in that case a start with both feet down while sat may be a Good
Thing. *But*, at the end of a course I would hope that you'd be
competent at stopping, coming down off the saddle as necessary, before
you were let loose on traffic. In other words, if they think you can't
go out on roads because you can't put both feet down while sat in the
saddle I think they're putting the cart before the horse. Before you
get on to the road you should be able to prove you can stop safely
without toppling over sideways or doing a head-plant over the bars, and
if you can prove you can stop safely with the saddle at a proper height
off the road then you've proved you can do it on the road.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
  #9  
Old April 24th 08, 11:42 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Nick Kew
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Posts: 268
Default Cycling at schools - bike size/saddle height

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:08:51 +0100
Mark wrote:

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.


Sounds like something for the wee tots. As in, pre-school age.

Any thoughts?


FWIW, I had my first own bike at age 10. Before that I'd only
ever used *adult* bikes owned (though not used) by (adult, female)
members of my family. Of course I couldn't reach the saddles,
but was able to ride them standing on the pedals.

If there's a moral, it's something about children being much
more flexible and adaptable than adults. Contrast me now:
I have a new bike (bought last week:-), and I'm fussing
over things like adjusting the saddle and bars to optimum
comfort on both uphill and downhill!

--
not me guv
  #10  
Old April 24th 08, 12:49 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Mark T[_2_]
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Posts: 525
Default Cycling at schools - bike size/saddle height

Mark writtificated

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.


The heel on pedal and knee slightly bent thing is a good starting point for
getting the optimum pedalling efficiency. This does tend to result in only
being able to stand on tiptoes when still on the saddle. The solution is
to lean the bike and get one foot down, stand astride the top tube and get
both feet down, or just stand on tiptoe (easier with stiff cycling shoes.

Many beginner cyclists prefer to sacrifice efficiency for the greater
convenience of being able to stop without fear of toppling over. This
makes perfect sense as long as they are aware that pedalling will take more
effort - if they're trundling along at 10mph they're not going to be too
concerned at putting in 10% more power - it's prolly still less than
walking.

Can your daughter ride the bike confidently, and stop and start safely? If
she could not do this the instructors were right not to let her out on the
roads. Might be an idea to check she can start and stop safely (including
moving away after stopping in too high a gear).

If she is competent and safe on the bike then showing them something from
cyclecraft should do the trick. Being rude, angry or patronising will
prolly make them dig in and behave like stubborn children so tact will be
needed.
 




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