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Bicycling specific clothing = why not?



 
 
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  #71  
Old July 17th 19, 12:29 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 770
Default Bicycling specific clothing = why not?

On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:58:31 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:06:11 +0700, John B. wrote:


As I believe I wrote before, it is probably required by the insurance
company. Just like wearing a life jacket while aboard the crew change
boat although the water is so shallow that you can usually walk ashore.


OTOH, I've seen plenty of incidents with watercraft where wearing a
lifejacket is worthwhile insurance. If it can float a craft, then you
can drown in it and you don't always enter the water in a controlled way.


You missed the part where I said "although the water is so shallow
that you can usually walk ashore"?

As I said (below) the arbitrary "You gotta wear a hard hat", or" you
gotta wear a life jacket" is usually a method of ensuring that
everyone is using safety equipment any time that they come near the
work site and thus no insurance company is going to rule an accident
non insurable because no safety equipment was used.

And, quite often to short circuit any discussion about "I don't need to
wear one over there" the rule is that ALL personal will wear safety
equipment ALL they time they are on the job site. Or words to that
effect.

--
cheers,

John B.

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  #72  
Old July 17th 19, 12:51 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 631
Default Bicycling specific clothing = why not?

On Tuesday, July 16, 2019 at 2:05:55 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, July 16, 2019 at 8:37:03 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:

I accidentally got car deaths written down instead of pedestrians. However, my point is the same. Remember I raced sailboats, sometimes many miles from shore and I do not swim well. I always wore a life jacket but the most important thing wasn't that jacket - it was a safety line.


Most blue water sailors I know can't swim either.

AJ


Somehow I wouldn't like to be floating around in the middle of nowhere suspended by a lifejacket whose real purpose is to support the remains in a position attractive to sharks.
  #73  
Old July 17th 19, 12:53 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 770
Default Bicycling specific clothing = why not?

On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:32:04 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Tuesday, July 16, 2019 at 11:21:09 AM UTC-4, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:


Oh, I have no doubt it was mandatory for these paving guys to wear hard hats.
I also have no doubt it was a stupid requirement. Realistically, the guys
biggest chance of a head injury was when he was getting out of his truck; he
might have bumped his head on the upper edge of the roof.

There was nothing above his head. There would be nothing above his head except
perhaps some telephone lines during the entire operation.


Did you ever teach a lab class? If so, I'm guessing there a requirement
to wear eye protection at all times. What would you have said if a
student argued that, under the particular circumstances of the day, he
didn't actually need it? Frequently as an employee it just does not pay
(literally) to think for oneself.

One valuable aspect to mandatory hard hats is that it sets those that
are supposed to be on site apart from members of the public that have
just wandered in.


Yes, I taught many lab classes, including an intro to machine shop. Yes, the
rule was "eye protection at all times." But that was mostly because there was
_always_ something happening that justified eye protection. Typically there
would be five lathes running, one milling machine, occasionally a shaper,
one or another saws, etc.

On the first day of class I did an introduction, where I'd explain what each
machine did. For that, the students didn't have eye protection and it wasn't
needed.

Regarding the pickup truck driver on the paving operation, I fully understand
the convenience to the management or (more likely) the insurance company to say
"hard hats at all times." In particular, insurance companies get to impose those
sorts of requirements at no cost to themselves, so their rationale is probably
"What the hell, it _might_ help and it's no skin off our nose."

But to me, when that leads to head protection against phantom hazards, it's
still weird. And it's one of the drivers of "safety inflation."

- Frank Krygowski

When I was assigned to the SAC F-111B test program at Edwards AFB I
had to do a lot of my work in the base machine shop and one day I was
standing in the shop but not close to any operating machines and a
safety inspector came along and tells me that he is going to write me
up for not wearing safety glasses.

I looked at him and said, well than write yourself up to as you aren't
wearing safety glasses either.

He thought about that for a while and says, "I don't have to wear
safety glasses because I am a Safety Inspector". Which I thought was
pretty innovative :-)

But try imagining yourself as an insurance contract writer and writing
the guide rules for wearing a hard hat during an oil well drilling
project in a remote area. And remember that if you don't cover each
and every single instance where someone might be hurt you are going
to cost your company money and might even lose your job.

Now, I suggest, the arbitrary ruling "Everybody gotta wear a hard
hat" begins to make sense.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #74  
Old July 17th 19, 02:48 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 770
Default Bicycling specific clothing = why not?

On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 06:50:26 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, July 16, 2019 at 5:58:34 AM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:06:11 +0700, John B. wrote:


As I believe I wrote before, it is probably required by the insurance
company. Just like wearing a life jacket while aboard the crew change
boat although the water is so shallow that you can usually walk ashore.


OTOH, I've seen plenty of incidents with watercraft where wearing a
lifejacket is worthwhile insurance. If it can float a craft, then you
can drown in it and you don't always enter the water in a controlled way.

And, quite often to short circuit any discussion about "I don't need to
wear one over there" the rule is that ALL personal will wear safety
equipment ALL they time they are on the job site. Or words to that
effect.


40,000 pedestrians were killed doing things like walking across parking lots to go to a store. How many people were drowned on watercraft last year?


https://tinyurl.com/yybbuoft

Pedestrian fatalities in the U.S. is holding steady with nearly 6,000
pedestrians killed in 2017, according to estimates from the Governors
Highway Safety Association.

That's a 25-year high, GHSA says. While the rise "appears to be
tapering off," the group said, the "continuation of pedestrian
fatalities at virtually the same pace ... raises continued concerns
about the nation's alarming pedestrian death toll."
--
cheers,

John B.

  #75  
Old July 17th 19, 04:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,284
Default Bicycling specific clothing = why not?

On Tuesday, July 16, 2019 at 9:48:40 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 06:50:26 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, July 16, 2019 at 5:58:34 AM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:06:11 +0700, John B. wrote:


As I believe I wrote before, it is probably required by the insurance
company. Just like wearing a life jacket while aboard the crew change
boat although the water is so shallow that you can usually walk ashore.

OTOH, I've seen plenty of incidents with watercraft where wearing a
lifejacket is worthwhile insurance. If it can float a craft, then you
can drown in it and you don't always enter the water in a controlled way.

And, quite often to short circuit any discussion about "I don't need to
wear one over there" the rule is that ALL personal will wear safety
equipment ALL they time they are on the job site. Or words to that
effect.


40,000 pedestrians were killed doing things like walking across parking lots to go to a store. How many people were drowned on watercraft last year?


https://tinyurl.com/yybbuoft

Pedestrian fatalities in the U.S. is holding steady with nearly 6,000
pedestrians killed in 2017, according to estimates from the Governors
Highway Safety Association.

That's a 25-year high, GHSA says. While the rise "appears to be
tapering off," the group said, the "continuation of pedestrian
fatalities at virtually the same pace ... raises continued concerns
about the nation's alarming pedestrian death toll."


Those 6000 pedestrian deaths are compared to about 780 bicycle deaths in 2017.
Yet it's _bicycling_ that's continuously slammed as being dangerous, absolutely
requiring helmets, bright clothing, daytime lights, etc. etc.

- Frank Krygowski

  #76  
Old July 17th 19, 06:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 770
Default Bicycling specific clothing = why not?

On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 20:16:51 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Tuesday, July 16, 2019 at 9:48:40 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 06:50:26 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, July 16, 2019 at 5:58:34 AM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:06:11 +0700, John B. wrote:


As I believe I wrote before, it is probably required by the insurance
company. Just like wearing a life jacket while aboard the crew change
boat although the water is so shallow that you can usually walk ashore.

OTOH, I've seen plenty of incidents with watercraft where wearing a
lifejacket is worthwhile insurance. If it can float a craft, then you
can drown in it and you don't always enter the water in a controlled way.

And, quite often to short circuit any discussion about "I don't need to
wear one over there" the rule is that ALL personal will wear safety
equipment ALL they time they are on the job site. Or words to that
effect.

40,000 pedestrians were killed doing things like walking across parking lots to go to a store. How many people were drowned on watercraft last year?


https://tinyurl.com/yybbuoft

Pedestrian fatalities in the U.S. is holding steady with nearly 6,000
pedestrians killed in 2017, according to estimates from the Governors
Highway Safety Association.

That's a 25-year high, GHSA says. While the rise "appears to be
tapering off," the group said, the "continuation of pedestrian
fatalities at virtually the same pace ... raises continued concerns
about the nation's alarming pedestrian death toll."


Those 6000 pedestrian deaths are compared to about 780 bicycle deaths in 2017.
Yet it's _bicycling_ that's continuously slammed as being dangerous, absolutely
requiring helmets, bright clothing, daytime lights, etc. etc.

- Frank Krygowski


But of course walking can't be dangerous. Why every one is doing it
:-)
But than you, I and the U.S. government are most certainly wrong about
the number of pedestrian deaths. After all, Tom says it is 40,000 dead
bodies littering up the parking lots and everyone knows that Tom is
never wrong.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #77  
Old July 17th 19, 10:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,294
Default Bicycling specific clothing = why not?

Frank Krygowski writes:

On Tuesday, July 16, 2019 at 11:21:09 AM UTC-4, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:


Oh, I have no doubt it was mandatory for these paving guys to wear
hard hats.
I also have no doubt it was a stupid requirement. Realistically, the guys
biggest chance of a head injury was when he was getting out of his
truck; he
might have bumped his head on the upper edge of the roof.

There was nothing above his head. There would be nothing above his
head except
perhaps some telephone lines during the entire operation.


Did you ever teach a lab class? If so, I'm guessing there a requirement
to wear eye protection at all times. What would you have said if a
student argued that, under the particular circumstances of the day, he
didn't actually need it? Frequently as an employee it just does not pay
(literally) to think for oneself.

One valuable aspect to mandatory hard hats is that it sets those that
are supposed to be on site apart from members of the public that have
just wandered in.


Yes, I taught many lab classes, including an intro to machine shop. Yes, the
rule was "eye protection at all times." But that was mostly because there was
_always_ something happening that justified eye protection. Typically there
would be five lathes running, one milling machine, occasionally a shaper,
one or another saws, etc.

On the first day of class I did an introduction, where I'd explain what each
machine did. For that, the students didn't have eye protection and it wasn't
needed.


You could decide eye protection wasn't needed on the first day in your
role as a supervisor. A student, in his role as a peon, could not do
that without seriously limiting his future career. Valuable life
experience, that.

Regarding the pickup truck driver on the paving operation, I fully
understand the convenience to the management or (more likely) the
insurance company to say "hard hats at all times." In particular,
insurance companies get to impose those sorts of requirements at no
cost to themselves, so their rationale is probably "What the hell, it
_might_ help and it's no skin off our nose."

But to me, when that leads to head protection against phantom hazards, it's
still weird. And it's one of the drivers of "safety inflation."


I almost always wear a seatbelt when in a car. There may be some
instances where the trouble of putting it on does not justify the small
increment in safety that it gives. But the trouble of *thinking about
it* easily outweighs the trouble of putting on the belt.

Logic and reason are wonderful hammers, but every problem in life is not
a nail. Trying to reason out every quotidian choice from first
principles is nuts.
  #78  
Old July 25th 19, 07:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
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Posts: 1,385
Default Bicycling specific clothing = why not?


I never ride my real bike without first changing clothing.
(I've jumped onto my flatfoot in my grubbies at least twice,
but I usually put on an ankle-length dress before riding it.)

I also change clothes before walking or riding in a car.


Hmm. What do you bring on an opera date?
  #79  
Old July 25th 19, 07:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
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Posts: 1,385
Default Bicycling specific clothing = why not?


At what point would you paid the slightest credence to someone telling you what to wear? I mean, besides your wife?


Haha yer whipped
  #80  
Old July 26th 19, 03:32 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 631
Default Bicycling specific clothing = why not?

On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 11:58:08 AM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:
At what point would you paid the slightest credence to someone telling you what to wear? I mean, besides your wife?


Haha yer whipped


I have to admit that people worrying about what others may think about what they are wearing is a little strange to me. I was just watching a TV program called "Hacked" and it was the largest pile of bull possible. According to Cambridge Analytica they won Donald Trump the election. They won Brexit and it is all the fault of Facebook and Google.

IF you can be manipulated that easily you deserve what you get.
 




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