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  #81  
Old May 10th 19, 04:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default Ineffective Cycling

On Thu, 9 May 2019 21:48:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/9/2019 7:01 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2019 12:22:14 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/8/2019 10:43 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 8 May 2019 19:03:17 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Wednesday, May 8, 2019 at 6:31:36 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 8 May 2019 14:17:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 5/8/2019 1:59 PM, Duane wrote:
On 08/05/2019 1:52 p.m., wrote:


Same here. I was riding along yesterday and a woman in a car wanted to
drive onto the road from the right. I saw it coming and shook my head
trying to say don't do that in a nice way. She nodded her head trying
to 'yes I will' and yelling at me she is coming from the right and
have right of way. I said you coming from a parking lot and have to
give right of way to anybody on the road. You have to deal with this
kind of situations at least once every ride.


Funny how these things seem common to some of us but apparently there's
a book you can read to solve it all.

That statement is very similar to "Ya don't need to know algebra. All ya
need is add and subtract."

Funny, you know. My wife doesn't know algebra and is now in her 70's
and hasn't yet seemed to need it. Would you care to elaborate why an
elderly woman like her needs to know advanced math?

Wow. Sometimes it's necessary to spell out the analogies in painstaking detail!

I'm talking about math skills as a parallel to cycling skills. So does your wife
need algebra? Does she need multiplication and division? Not if she's never
going to do anything beyond shopping, balancing a check book, following a recipe
book.

How in the world are math skills a parallel to bicycle skills?

Hmm. Note to self: John doesn't understand the concept of "analogy."

Does knowing the square root of -1 equate to riding a bicycle?

Please re-read above, where I used multiplication and division as well
as algebra. I didn't get into irrational numbers, conic sections,
trigonometry, differential equations, etc.


But, as you say, it was an analogy. Don't you understand the concept
of "analogy"?

But I'm saying basic bike riding like my seven year old buddy does is
one thing. Perhaps it's what you do, since you've mentioned riding only
on highways with super-wide separated shoulders. Likewise, it's easy to
ride just on bike paths or streets with near zero traffic.


But Frank, over here there are hoards of people who use a bicycle for
transportation. Ride early in the morning near any "open market" and
you'll see them going and returning from their daily trip to buy the
day's food. Why, I even see guys riding to work in the morning.

My guess is that there are more (on a per capita basis) people riding
bicycles in Thailand than there are in the U.S.

And not a one of them have read your recommended book.

If that's all one does and all one aspires to do, that's fine. They may
be able to say they have no problems. But they shouldn't pretend to be
expert.


I don't pretend to be an expert. I have only commented that I've been
riding a bike for about 20 years without an accident, or even an
incident, and much of that time has been in a city with such chaotic
traffic that most foreigners are literally afraid to drive here and in
a country that usually leads the pack, or comes in second, as the
country with the most traffic deaths in the world.

See:
http://driving-in-thailand.com/thai-...-in-the-world/
But we did better
https://coconuts.co/bangkok/news/tha...t-world-atlas/

There are also bike riders around here who creep along on the sidewalk,
stopping frequently. If they take to the street at all, they stop each
time a car comes by. I suppose that's fine too, if they are willing to
put up with snail's pace transportation. Maybe you're like them, I don't
know. But again, such a person may never have been in a crash. But they
shouldn't pretend they know all there is to know.

If you want to do more - explore cities by bike, or bike for real
transportation, or travel on multi-day trips by bike, etc. - then more
knowledge is valuable. And as with mathematics beyond first grade,
nobody gets it by being a hubristic genius.


In the second site I mention, above, the lead photo is entitled
"Bangkok Traffic". Does your book tell me something I haven't already
learned (after 20 years) about how to ride in "Bangkok Traffic"?


Earlier, you talked about riding the six-foot shoulders or not riding at
all. I don't see six foot shoulders in that photo.


Look again, you must have missed it
https://coconuts.co/bangkok/news/tha...t-world-atlas/
Look at the overpass, there is a shoulder, roughly half the width of
an automobile, and certainly wide enough for motorcycle to ride in on
both sides, with no problems.

Maybe you can tell me more about the conditions where you actually do ride.

And why would someone dedicated to bicycling adamantly refuse to even
read a book on the subject? If you'd saved the time you spent arguing
here, you could have finished the book by now.


Again I will mention the above "Bangkok Traffic" and ask, does your
book tell me any secrets about how to cope with Bangkok Traffic?


The book I'm talking the most about, _Cyclecraft_ by John Franklin, is
aimed at cycling in "westernized" countries, like Britain, the U.S.,
Australia, Canada, France, Austria, Italy, Ireland, etc. I'll admit that
rules, conditions and best practices in Thailand may be different.

However, that doesn't mean the best way to learn to become a highly
competent rider in Thailand is to bumble about by trial and error. If
there are resources there, I would use them.


Sure they got resources here. the traffic code which is quite
specific... that bicycles and (small) motorcycles are to ride on the
side of the road so as not to impede faster traffic. The Thai word
used means the same as "side" does in English, a rather non-specific
word which might be interpreted as "not in the middle".

The bumbling alternative is like trying to learn Ohm's Law by
disassembling a microchip.


Ah... you have stolen my analogy that I used in another post except I
had used the work transistor rather than microchip :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

Ads
  #82  
Old May 10th 19, 04:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Theodore Heise[_2_]
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Posts: 132
Default Ineffective Cycling

On Thu, 9 May 2019 11:53:59 -0400,
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/9/2019 5:10 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:


Do not (overtly) look at traffic supposed to yield, don't slow
down the cranks, just calculate emergency manoeuvers without
showing.


"Don't slow down the cranks" is one technique I learned. When I
have the right of way, I want to make it visibly clear that I'm
going to take it.


I think it's more than giving an indication of intent to take the
right of way. My experience is that drivers usually have a hard
time judging the speed of cyclists, and somehow they get the
impression the bike is moving faster if they see legs going than
if they see it coasting.

--
Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA
  #83  
Old May 10th 19, 04:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Ineffective Cycling

On Thu, 9 May 2019 22:19:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/9/2019 8:07 PM, sms wrote:

The most succinct critique of John Franklin's work that I saw was this:

"If John Franklin’s aim was to keep cycling as a niche activity
practised by a tiny minority of confident men, then congratulations!
Success! Well done! You may now stop reading.

If John Franklin’s aim was to help riding a bike become an activity
which is easy for everyone — men and women, from toddlers to pensioners
— then he has failed."


Yes, I've seen the same diatribe hurled at others. The boors who do that
are setting up a false premise.

Franklin and others who educate about best riding practices don't have
the objective of getting 25% of Americans or Brits to give up their
cars. That daydream is confined to a completely different pack of
dewey-eyed do-gooders.

Instead, these educators are trying to help people ride competently and
safely in the real world as it exists. Why? Because if you wait for the
daydreams, you'll never ride much of anywhere.

Here's a concrete example, using (shudder!) numbers. The dreamers are
now saying "We need 'protected' bike lanes everywhere! Painted bike
lanes don't work!" And BTW, they say that after decades of saying "We
need painted bike lanes everywhere!"

OK, there are over four million miles of roadway in America. At last
count, there were less than 300 miles of "protected" bike lane in the
entire country. So according to those fools, you can ride safely on only
0.01% of America's roads.


I once calculated the amount of Bike lanes that would have to be
constructed in the U.S. to equal the amount already built in The
Netherlands, based on the amount of motor vehicle roads existing in
each country. I believe that the number was one million miles of bike
lanes to equal what Holland had at the time I made the calculation -
perhaps a year ago.

In other words, their message is: "Bicycling is too dangerous." And the
obvious corollary is "Bicycling will be too dangerous until well after
you have died of natural causes; and your children have died; and their
children have died." IOW, we might as well crush all bikes for the scrap
metal. (Too bad about the carbon fiber.)

This is what I constantly see in my area. For the experienced cyclist,
both men and women, following at least some of the precepts of
"Vehicular Cycling" make sense, but it doesn't help get more people out
of cars and onto bicycles. The latter requires some level of bicycle
infrastructure, and all of Frank's "danger danger" rhetoric is not going
to convince the majority of people to give cycling a try.


Don't claim "Danger! Danger!" is MY rhetoric! You've been the one
claiming we MUST have head protection, wear day-glo clothing, use
daytime running lights, use horizontal flags on our bikes, install
electric horns, build "protected" cattle chutes, etc.

I'm the one who has pointed out that there are over ten million miles
ridden between bike fatalities; that cyclists comprise only 0.6% of
America's brain injury deaths; that every study on the subject has found
that the benefits of bicycling outweigh its risks many times over.

"The problem is that he opposes a type of road design which is proven to
increase cycling rates and safety and which offers a better way of life
for everyone, and not just for “cyclists” either."


The type of road design Franklin opposes was installed on Summit Street
in Columbus, Ohio. Car-bike crashes jumped from an average of two per
year or less, to well over 12 per year.

The type of road design Franklin opposes was studied carefully in
Copenhagen, comparing the same roads before and after (unlike some
propaganda papers that compared extremely dissimilar roads). The
researchers found "protected" cycle tracks increased crashes markedly.

Why the above results? Because forcing cyclists to ride far right and
out of sight greatly complicates intersection interactions. Cyclists pop
out into the path of motorists, yet still feel "protected." But the
dewey-eyed, innumerate daydreamers can't understand this.

Fortunately, there are few places in the world that subscribe to
Franklin's point of view because of the effort to reduce motor vehicle
traffic.


You _cannot_ point to a place where segregated bike facilities have
significantly reduced motor vehicle traffic, Scharf. After decades of
stripes, bike boxes, green paint, bollards and rail-trails the American
bike commuting mode fraction is the same as it always was.

The best you can do is find places where motoring is strongly
discouraged and dissuaded, but also (and incidentally) has bike
facilities. Bike tracks alone simply don't get a significant number of
people to stop driving.

There is a problem with bike lanes, specifically unprotected bike lanes
that are just painted lines. Today is "Bike to Work Day" in my area. As
an elected official I rode around to several "Energizer Stations," two
put on by Apple, one by Kaiser, and one by my city. I saw first hand the
problem with unprotected bike lanes. In Sunnyvale, a Chevy Volt decided
that a bike lane was the perfect place to park.


But gosh, for dozens of years you've portrayed bike lanes as just
wonderful!

I'd suggest you get your act straight and develop some consistency. But
I know that's not going to happen.

--
cheers,

John B.

  #84  
Old May 10th 19, 08:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Rolf Mantel[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 267
Default Ineffective Cycling

Am 10.05.2019 um 05:31 schrieb John B.:
Look again, you must have missed it
https://coconuts.co/bangkok/news/tha...t-world-atlas/
Look at the overpass, there is a shoulder, roughly half the width of
an automobile, and certainly wide enough for motorcycle to ride in on
both sides, with no problems.


You might need to either adjust your language or fine-tune your eyes.

Shoulder: part of the road that is separated from the main roadway by a
line.

6 foot: close to 2m, as wide as a high-end cars is without mirrors.

What this picture shows is an overpass with 2 marked lanes (of 3-4m
width) which are each split into virtual separate lanes for a car (2m)
and a motorbike (1m).

Rolf
  #85  
Old May 10th 19, 08:32 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sepp Ruf
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 454
Default Ineffective Cycling

John B. wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2019 21:48:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/9/2019 7:01 PM, John B. wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:


snipped
I don't pretend to be an expert. I have only commented that I've been
riding a bike for about 20 years without an accident, or even an
incident, and much of that time has been in a city with such chaotic
traffic that most foreigners are literally afraid to drive here and in
a country that usually leads the pack, or comes in second, as the
country with the most traffic deaths in the world.

See:
http://driving-in-thailand.com/thai-...-in-the-world/
But we did better
https://coconuts.co/bangkok/news/tha...t-world-atlas/

There are also bike riders around here who creep along on the sidewalk,
stopping frequently. If they take to the street at all, they stop each
time a car comes by. I suppose that's fine too, if they are willing to
put up with snail's pace transportation. Maybe you're like them, I don't
know. But again, such a person may never have been in a crash. But they
shouldn't pretend they know all there is to know.

If you want to do more - explore cities by bike, or bike for real
transportation, or travel on multi-day trips by bike, etc. - then more
knowledge is valuable. And as with mathematics beyond first grade,
nobody gets it by being a hubristic genius.

In the second site I mention, above, the lead photo is entitled
"Bangkok Traffic". Does your book tell me something I haven't already
learned (after 20 years) about how to ride in "Bangkok Traffic"?


Earlier, you talked about riding the six-foot shoulders or not riding at
all. I don't see six foot shoulders in that photo.


Look again, you must have missed it
https://coconuts.co/bangkok/news/tha...t-world-atlas/
Look at the overpass, there is a shoulder, roughly half the width of
an automobile,


The standard Thai automobile is 12 ft wide, then. Whatever they made you
inhale during the recent Royal Thai festivities, John, it didn't do you any
good.

and certainly wide enough for motorcycle to ride in on
both sides, with no problems.


For our senior citizens, the full-size pic:
https://coconuts.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/13730708213_902f8a90d3_h-1.jpg
Isn't that a big fat overhead sign showing bicycles are not allowed on the
overpass?

There is a constant stream of two-wheelers on that wide outer lane,
shoulder, whatever, on the extreme left. Of course you'd cycle there if
"traffic" is slower in the rest of the traffic jam ... and you aren't
thrill-seeking enough to race and weave in between lines of cars.

Maybe you can tell me more about the conditions where you actually do ride.


Apparently, he cannot. John prefers to divert by posting some semiliterate
youtube "statistician."
  #86  
Old May 10th 19, 08:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Ineffective Cycling

On Thursday, May 9, 2019 at 11:31:36 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
Snipped
Look again, you must have missed it
https://coconuts.co/bangkok/news/tha...t-world-atlas/
Look at the overpass, there is a shoulder, roughly half the width of
an automobile, and certainly wide enough for motorcycle to ride in on
both sides, with no problems.

Snipped
cheers,

John B.


Is it my imagination or does that sign in the upper left mean no motorcycles? Just curious because I see what appear to be motorcycles on that overpass.

Cheers
  #87  
Old May 10th 19, 08:43 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Rolf Mantel[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 267
Default Ineffective Cycling

Am 09.05.2019 um 14:35 schrieb Duane:
What I object to is telling me that my "primary" position should be one
that puts me in the middle of the lane.Â* Maybe the term "primary" has
some meaning that I don't understand.Â* I'll be there when I think it
necessary but I understand that there's some risk to doing that.


If it's just the wording, I might give some motivation. The majority of
bike trips (at least outside the US) are transportational, and the
majority of transportational trips is in town.

In my classes I ran in the 1900's based on "Cyclecraft", I explained as
follows:
In situations of potential conflict in town, you should be in the
"primary" position.
Situations of potential conflict include
- going straight when there is a significant chance of the car behind
doing a near-side turn
- going straight when there is a car coming from the near-side and you
have priority
- going straight when it is unsafe/inappropriate for a car to overtake
you (e.g. pedestrian crossing, oncoming traffic on narrow roads)

In Europe, this means that the "primary position" is recommended for
70-80% of the distance you cycle in town, so it is more helpful to teach
"in town, take the primary position, and when you judge it is safe to be
overtaken by the cars behind, change to the secondary position to let
them pass".

For cycling outside town, the situation is different:
1) a lot fewer points of conflict
2) lower traffic density means you won't be overtaken every 10s while
riding in secondary position
3) higher traffic speed means the speed difference between cars and you
is higher, and thus the "primary" position carries more risks.

Rolf

PS: it is extremely hard to have a language that is both precise and
easily understood at the same time. For international communication,
the precise language might be more appropriate but to reach the public
you need an easily understood language even though this language might
lead to misunderstandings in some other countries.

  #88  
Old May 10th 19, 08:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Ineffective Cycling

On Fri, 10 May 2019 09:13:32 +0200, Rolf Mantel
wrote:

Am 10.05.2019 um 05:31 schrieb John B.:
Look again, you must have missed it
https://coconuts.co/bangkok/news/tha...t-world-atlas/
Look at the overpass, there is a shoulder, roughly half the width of
an automobile, and certainly wide enough for motorcycle to ride in on
both sides, with no problems.


You might need to either adjust your language or fine-tune your eyes.

Shoulder: part of the road that is separated from the main roadway by a
line.

6 foot: close to 2m, as wide as a high-end cars is without mirrors.

What this picture shows is an overpass with 2 marked lanes (of 3-4m
width) which are each split into virtual separate lanes for a car (2m)
and a motorbike (1m).

Rolf


Actually, that isn't quite correct. :-)

If you look at the upper R.H. side of the photo you can make out a
white sign with some markings on it. One of which, the lower R.H. one,
bans motorcycles from using the overpass. So a motorcycle lane is
rather doubtful :-(
--
cheers,

John B.

  #89  
Old May 10th 19, 10:07 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Ineffective Cycling

On Fri, 10 May 2019 00:40:55 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, May 9, 2019 at 11:31:36 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
Snipped
Look again, you must have missed it
https://coconuts.co/bangkok/news/tha...t-world-atlas/
Look at the overpass, there is a shoulder, roughly half the width of
an automobile, and certainly wide enough for motorcycle to ride in on
both sides, with no problems.

Snipped
cheers,

John B.


Is it my imagination or does that sign in the upper left mean no motorcycles? Just curious because I see what appear to be motorcycles on that overpass.

Cheers


Yup. It says no motorcycles, no trucks, no trailers and no bicycles.

As for bicycles on the overpass? Well the "Thai" in the word
"Thailand" literally means "free" and the motorcycles seem to take
that as freedom to do as they please :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #90  
Old May 10th 19, 10:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Ineffective Cycling

On Fri, 10 May 2019 09:32:41 +0200, Sepp Ruf
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2019 21:48:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/9/2019 7:01 PM, John B. wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:


snipped
I don't pretend to be an expert. I have only commented that I've been
riding a bike for about 20 years without an accident, or even an
incident, and much of that time has been in a city with such chaotic
traffic that most foreigners are literally afraid to drive here and in
a country that usually leads the pack, or comes in second, as the
country with the most traffic deaths in the world.

See:
http://driving-in-thailand.com/thai-...-in-the-world/
But we did better
https://coconuts.co/bangkok/news/tha...t-world-atlas/

There are also bike riders around here who creep along on the sidewalk,
stopping frequently. If they take to the street at all, they stop each
time a car comes by. I suppose that's fine too, if they are willing to
put up with snail's pace transportation. Maybe you're like them, I don't
know. But again, such a person may never have been in a crash. But they
shouldn't pretend they know all there is to know.

If you want to do more - explore cities by bike, or bike for real
transportation, or travel on multi-day trips by bike, etc. - then more
knowledge is valuable. And as with mathematics beyond first grade,
nobody gets it by being a hubristic genius.

In the second site I mention, above, the lead photo is entitled
"Bangkok Traffic". Does your book tell me something I haven't already
learned (after 20 years) about how to ride in "Bangkok Traffic"?

Earlier, you talked about riding the six-foot shoulders or not riding at
all. I don't see six foot shoulders in that photo.


Look again, you must have missed it
https://coconuts.co/bangkok/news/tha...t-world-atlas/
Look at the overpass, there is a shoulder, roughly half the width of
an automobile,


The standard Thai automobile is 12 ft wide, then. Whatever they made you
inhale during the recent Royal Thai festivities, John, it didn't do you any
good.

and certainly wide enough for motorcycle to ride in on
both sides, with no problems.


For our senior citizens, the full-size pic:
https://coconuts.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/13730708213_902f8a90d3_h-1.jpg
Isn't that a big fat overhead sign showing bicycles are not allowed on the
overpass?

There is a constant stream of two-wheelers on that wide outer lane,
shoulder, whatever, on the extreme left. Of course you'd cycle there if
"traffic" is slower in the rest of the traffic jam ... and you aren't
thrill-seeking enough to race and weave in between lines of cars.

Maybe you can tell me more about the conditions where you actually do ride.


Apparently, he cannot. John prefers to divert by posting some semiliterate
youtube "statistician."


Goodness! You mean it wasn't true? And you know this how? Because
"everyone knows" or maybe "there have been numerous studies" or some
other wild eyed pronouncement with no evidence whatsoever provided?

We had one guy here that used those sort of pronouncements to prove
his statements and, apparently, now we have two.
--
cheers,

John B.

 




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