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Ceramic drive chain



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 21st 19, 03:42 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Ceramic drive chain

On 6/20/2019 7:09 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 11:31:10 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
wrote:

When I first saw this nonsense a few months ago, I recognized that their little strainer basket cassette thing would never be able to tolerate the side loads resulting from a person pedaling for propulsion. Building the cassette, bearings, and drive shaft rigid and strong enough to do the implied job would make the weight of the system uncompetitive with existing solutions.


" CeramicSpeed's USA office, and the University of Colorado Boulder's
Mechanical Engineering Department" developed the design so one might
assume that it is likely that problems such as you describe were
considered during the design phase.


The problems were probably considered. That doesn't mean they were
solved. I'm betting against that; but we'll see.

It looks like the company is making its money from other enterprises
entirely.

CeramicSpeed bought Friction Facts, which got a lot of press (and was
discussed here) with its chain lubrication service. They lubed it with
paraffin wax plus a bit of teflon powder and had test data showing it
was more efficient than chains slathered with traditional liquid lubes.
CeramicSpeed sells "optimized" chains, which are probably just chains
with that lube.

They also sell ceramic bearings for (or in) things like bottom brackets,
derailleur pulleys, headsets, and claim they will save you huge
percentages of your friction watts. But your friction watts are pretty
tiny to begin with. Dare I say it's like losing two pounds from a 180
pound bike+rider?

I think the company is using it's cheese grinder drive disk to get press
attention and drive buyers to its real business, which is pretty darned
conventional. We'll see if this goes anywhere.

--
- Frank Krygowski
Ads
  #12  
Old June 21st 19, 04:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default Ceramic drive chain

On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 22:42:41 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 6/20/2019 7:09 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 11:31:10 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
wrote:

When I first saw this nonsense a few months ago, I recognized that their little strainer basket cassette thing would never be able to tolerate the side loads resulting from a person pedaling for propulsion. Building the cassette, bearings, and drive shaft rigid and strong enough to do the implied job would make the weight of the system uncompetitive with existing solutions.


" CeramicSpeed's USA office, and the University of Colorado Boulder's
Mechanical Engineering Department" developed the design so one might
assume that it is likely that problems such as you describe were
considered during the design phase.


The problems were probably considered. That doesn't mean they were
solved. I'm betting against that; but we'll see.

It looks like the company is making its money from other enterprises
entirely.

CeramicSpeed bought Friction Facts, which got a lot of press (and was
discussed here) with its chain lubrication service. They lubed it with
paraffin wax plus a bit of teflon powder and had test data showing it
was more efficient than chains slathered with traditional liquid lubes.
CeramicSpeed sells "optimized" chains, which are probably just chains
with that lube.

They also sell ceramic bearings for (or in) things like bottom brackets,
derailleur pulleys, headsets, and claim they will save you huge
percentages of your friction watts. But your friction watts are pretty
tiny to begin with. Dare I say it's like losing two pounds from a 180
pound bike+rider?

I think the company is using it's cheese grinder drive disk to get press
attention and drive buyers to its real business, which is pretty darned
conventional. We'll see if this goes anywhere.


You may well be right. The Eurobike award that they received was the
2018 award for "Concept", and their web site quite clearly says that
so far they have built a prototype for continued study and that the
patent had been submitted.

And yes I'm sure that this does, to some extent, help sales. After
all, how many here was even aware of CeramicSpeed and their products.

By the way, I checked some of their prices and they are shocking! A
set of two pulley wheels for a Shimano 9 - 10 speed rear derailer at
about 199 EUR the set. Apparently they have been in business since
about 2001 so either they are selling bearings or have very rich
supporters :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #13  
Old June 21st 19, 05:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,131
Default Ceramic drive chain

On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 13:26:21 +0000, db wrote:

Check this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM

It all looks beautifully smooth etc. But I wonder, how does it stand up
to hard pedalling, like standing on the pedals on a steep uphill? Is the
force transfer still smooth and easy?


Didn't we just thrash ths to death?
Or am I skipping into parralel universes?

Nit pick, not "invented, just a rehash"

  #14  
Old June 21st 19, 02:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Ceramic drive chain

On 6/20/2019 9:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/20/2019 7:09 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 11:31:10 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
wrote:

When I first saw this nonsense a few months ago, I
recognized that their little strainer basket cassette
thing would never be able to tolerate the side loads
resulting from a person pedaling for propulsion.
Building the cassette, bearings, and drive shaft rigid
and strong enough to do the implied job would make the
weight of the system uncompetitive with existing solutions.


" CeramicSpeed's USA office, and the University of
Colorado Boulder's
Mechanical Engineering Department" developed the design
so one might
assume that it is likely that problems such as you
describe were
considered during the design phase.


The problems were probably considered. That doesn't mean
they were solved. I'm betting against that; but we'll see.

It looks like the company is making its money from other
enterprises entirely.

CeramicSpeed bought Friction Facts, which got a lot of press
(and was discussed here) with its chain lubrication service.
They lubed it with paraffin wax plus a bit of teflon powder
and had test data showing it was more efficient than chains
slathered with traditional liquid lubes. CeramicSpeed sells
"optimized" chains, which are probably just chains with that
lube.

They also sell ceramic bearings for (or in) things like
bottom brackets, derailleur pulleys, headsets, and claim
they will save you huge percentages of your friction watts.
But your friction watts are pretty tiny to begin with. Dare
I say it's like losing two pounds from a 180 pound bike+rider?

I think the company is using it's cheese grinder drive disk
to get press attention and drive buyers to its real
business, which is pretty darned conventional. We'll see if
this goes anywhere.


In fairness, ceramic bearings aren't sold as 'light' so much
as 'way mo rounder'[1]. My beef with that is the efficiency
gain, given the surfaces they contact, is minuscule and a
chipped ceramic ball is shrapnel.

[1] as with mass, just because you can measure it doesn't
make it necessarily significant in every application.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #15  
Old June 21st 19, 05:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Ceramic drive chain

On Thursday, June 20, 2019 at 6:26:23 AM UTC-7, db wrote:
Check this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM

It all looks beautifully smooth etc. But I wonder, how
does it stand up to hard pedalling, like standing on the
pedals on a steep uphill? Is the force transfer still smooth
and easy?

--
Dieter Britz


Deiter - that is an idea bike and nothing more. Drive shaft bikes are less efficient than chain drive. Ceramic bearings are totally unnecessary on a bike since the difference in drag between a steel and ceramic bearing is so small that it is undetectable except at auto-motor speeds. If I was building a world speed record streamliner the tiny difference could make a mark, but not otherwise.

  #16  
Old June 21st 19, 05:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Ceramic drive chain

On Thursday, June 20, 2019 at 11:31:13 AM UTC-7, Chalo wrote:
When I first saw this nonsense a few months ago, I recognized that their little strainer basket cassette thing would never be able to tolerate the side loads resulting from a person pedaling for propulsion. Building the cassette, bearings, and drive shaft rigid and strong enough to do the implied job would make the weight of the system uncompetitive with existing solutions.


Well, the side loads would have to be absorbed by a much heavier frame strength in that area.
  #17  
Old June 22nd 19, 10:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Ceramic drive chain

On 6/20/2019 8:47 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

By the way, I checked some of their prices and they are shocking! A
set of two pulley wheels for a Shimano 9 - 10 speed rear derailer at
about 199 EUR the set. Apparently they have been in business since
about 2001 so either they are selling bearings or have very rich
supporters :-)


Did you look at the price for their chain lube?! $75 for a six ounce
bottle. Recommended to reapply every 200km and to let the chain dry
overnight after application. Users also report that you can't let the
bottle get cold
https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R2TTC12U7EUDI4/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B076CWBPX7.
Still, for a racer that is doing a race of less than 200km it may have
value if the test data is true, and they seem to have solved some of the
issues that have plagued traditional wax-based lubes.
  #18  
Old June 22nd 19, 11:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Ceramic drive chain

eOn Fri, 21 Jun 2019 08:02:50 -0500, AMuzi
wrote:

On 6/20/2019 9:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/20/2019 7:09 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 11:31:10 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
wrote:

When I first saw this nonsense a few months ago, I
recognized that their little strainer basket cassette
thing would never be able to tolerate the side loads
resulting from a person pedaling for propulsion.
Building the cassette, bearings, and drive shaft rigid
and strong enough to do the implied job would make the
weight of the system uncompetitive with existing solutions.

" CeramicSpeed's USA office, and the University of
Colorado Boulder's
Mechanical Engineering Department" developed the design
so one might
assume that it is likely that problems such as you
describe were
considered during the design phase.


The problems were probably considered. That doesn't mean
they were solved. I'm betting against that; but we'll see.

It looks like the company is making its money from other
enterprises entirely.

CeramicSpeed bought Friction Facts, which got a lot of press
(and was discussed here) with its chain lubrication service.
They lubed it with paraffin wax plus a bit of teflon powder
and had test data showing it was more efficient than chains
slathered with traditional liquid lubes. CeramicSpeed sells
"optimized" chains, which are probably just chains with that
lube.

They also sell ceramic bearings for (or in) things like
bottom brackets, derailleur pulleys, headsets, and claim
they will save you huge percentages of your friction watts.
But your friction watts are pretty tiny to begin with. Dare
I say it's like losing two pounds from a 180 pound bike+rider?

I think the company is using it's cheese grinder drive disk
to get press attention and drive buyers to its real
business, which is pretty darned conventional. We'll see if
this goes anywhere.


In fairness, ceramic bearings aren't sold as 'light' so much
as 'way mo rounder'[1]. My beef with that is the efficiency
gain, given the surfaces they contact, is minuscule and a
chipped ceramic ball is shrapnel.

But are "ceramic" bearing known for chipping?

[1] as with mass, just because you can measure it doesn't
make it necessarily significant in every application.

--
cheers,

John B.

  #19  
Old June 23rd 19, 01:59 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Ceramic drive chain

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 6:08:50 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
eOn Fri, 21 Jun 2019 08:02:50 -0500, AMuzi
wrote:

Snipped
In fairness, ceramic bearings aren't sold as 'light' so much
as 'way mo rounder'[1]. My beef with that is the efficiency
gain, given the surfaces they contact, is minuscule and a
chipped ceramic ball is shrapnel.

But are "ceramic" bearing known for chipping?

[1] as with mass, just because you can measure it doesn't
make it necessarily significant in every application.

--
cheers,

John B.


I don't know about ceramic ball bearings chipping but one time when I opened up the cup and cone bottom bracket of an older bicycle I bought used the steel ball bearings were mostly disintegrated as was the steel retainer that used to hold them. No wonder the guy couldn't keep that bottom bracket adjusted. LOL VBEG

Cheers
  #20  
Old June 23rd 19, 03:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Ceramic drive chain

On 6/22/2019 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
eOn Fri, 21 Jun 2019 08:02:50 -0500, AMuzi
wrote:

On 6/20/2019 9:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/20/2019 7:09 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 11:31:10 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
wrote:

When I first saw this nonsense a few months ago, I
recognized that their little strainer basket cassette
thing would never be able to tolerate the side loads
resulting from a person pedaling for propulsion.
Building the cassette, bearings, and drive shaft rigid
and strong enough to do the implied job would make the
weight of the system uncompetitive with existing solutions.

" CeramicSpeed's USA office, and the University of
Colorado Boulder's
Mechanical Engineering Department" developed the design
so one might
assume that it is likely that problems such as you
describe were
considered during the design phase.

The problems were probably considered. That doesn't mean
they were solved. I'm betting against that; but we'll see.

It looks like the company is making its money from other
enterprises entirely.

CeramicSpeed bought Friction Facts, which got a lot of press
(and was discussed here) with its chain lubrication service.
They lubed it with paraffin wax plus a bit of teflon powder
and had test data showing it was more efficient than chains
slathered with traditional liquid lubes. CeramicSpeed sells
"optimized" chains, which are probably just chains with that
lube.

They also sell ceramic bearings for (or in) things like
bottom brackets, derailleur pulleys, headsets, and claim
they will save you huge percentages of your friction watts.
But your friction watts are pretty tiny to begin with. Dare
I say it's like losing two pounds from a 180 pound bike+rider?

I think the company is using it's cheese grinder drive disk
to get press attention and drive buyers to its real
business, which is pretty darned conventional. We'll see if
this goes anywhere.


In fairness, ceramic bearings aren't sold as 'light' so much
as 'way mo rounder'[1]. My beef with that is the efficiency
gain, given the surfaces they contact, is minuscule and a
chipped ceramic ball is shrapnel.

But are "ceramic" bearing known for chipping?

[1] as with mass, just because you can measure it doesn't
make it necessarily significant in every application.

--
cheers,

John B.


Generally with modern systems, no because the seals are
effective. But once you have dirt inside they just shatter.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


 




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