Electronic Shifting

On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 6:13:07 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/13/2019 4:07 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 9:53:19 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 1:34:51 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:56:43 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 2:59:31 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:43:02 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 2:54:54 PM UTC-4, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road.


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix.

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.

Sounds like "we" are in different places now. I'm betting that you, like most
"sport" cyclists, are using brifters - STI or similar.

I'm not using brifters for exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of electronics.
Some of my bikes have friction shifters, some have index bar-end levers or
index levers elsewhere on the handlebars. I'm sure I can disassemble any of
those if necessary - but it will probably never be necessary. They are very
simple devices, with little to go wrong.

BTW, my oldest index shifters are on a couple different three speed bikes. I've
had those apart. I don't exactly remember, but I'm guessing there were maybe
three moving parts. Heck, I could fabricate replacements for those!

- Frank Krygowski

Lets see how often did my brifters (ergo and STI) fail on me in the last 25 years...hmm....never. In take my chance for the coming years.

Ah, same as my shifters, then!

No, I take that back. There was a problem with a three speed trigger shifter...

But I have had friends who had STI failures, who called me to come help get them
going. One was on a brand new bike, bought two days before a week long bike tour.
Another was a bike that had been in storage for maybe a year. A third was my
daughter's bike on our longest tour, that consistently missed shifts onto the
largest cog. I was once asked to help with a broken cable, too (inside the mechanism)
but I wasn't able to straighten that out before having to leave for home.

I know they work fine for most people, and I think they've gotten more reliable
over the decades. But your preference is almost always for more technology. Mine
is almost always for more simplicity and repairability. I doubt either of us
will change.

- Frank Krygowski

It is clear that we live in a different cycling universe and I have little hope that I get you out of the eighties of last the century. That is OK. What I am trying to say to other people was that reliability can't be the reason to deny themselves the ease of use of brifters and even electronic shifting. Fortunately 99.9% of the people figured that out by themselves.

I _very_ much doubt that 99.9% of bicyclists always use brifters or electronic shifting.

With brifters and/or electronic shifting we are talking about road bikes. Well in that case on this side of the pond more than 99.9% uses them.

In fact, I doubt that 99.9% of rec.bicycles.tech readers always use
brifters or electronic shifting.

Again I am talking about road bikes but I have to admit that the people here would make a very odd subset of the road bike users on this side of the pond. Hell most of the utility bikes users here can shift without taken their hands from the brake position what is the essence of brifters.

There are many types of bicyclists and many types of bicyclists - AKA many
different cycling universes. That is way better than OK. Don't imagine your
personal riding style and equipment choices are the only legitimate ones, nor
the "best" ones.

Never said there aren't more than one cycling universes and I never said mine is the only or the best one. I only share my experiences with new/modern (training)equipment. Unlike you I prepared to 'gamble' once in a while with the chance to make a mistake and waste some money. My loss and I blame nobody. By doing that I have experience with all kinds of frame materials (steel, aluminum, titanium, CF). I have experience with brifters; Shimano and Campagnolo for many years. I have experience with an aero bike and wheels. Use training aids like heart rate monitor and power meters. I have experience with electronic shifting for 5 years now. Heck I ride a utility bike my whole life. When these subjects come around I now what I'm talking about and not only from heresay. If Sturmey Archer 3 speed hubs come around I shut up and leave it to the people who still uses them and I know nothing about touring and touring bikes. For the record I gave up on ATB's because of the ridiculous technic
al developments, GoreTex clothing is bull**** and 1x11/12 drivetrains is beyond me. Have a nice day.

Lou


My current bikes include derailleur gearing, an SA gearbox
and fixed gear. Each is perfect for what I do with it, none
is better than another overall.

Ditto for material on those Ti, steel and carbon machines.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Exactly and good for you Andrew. Every year I'm looking forward to the photo's of your New Years ride. I'm always amused and amazed of the bikes you all ride, the clothes you wear and of course the weather. Your cycling universe is so much different from that of mine but it makes me smile instead of making snotty remarks.

Lou, new VO2 max detected today: 52 ;-)

On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 8:59:31 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 1:44:40 AM UTC-7, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 22:01, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:13:51 AM UTC-7, Tom Evans wrote:
On 10/07/2019 21:19, Tom Kunich wrote:

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.

Long term it will probably be cheaper than mechanical.

It simplifies quite a few things. Simpler shifters, no gear cables, no
need for frame additions to route gear cables. The electronic components
will be dirt cheap.

What is the different between internal routing of wires (that come with the group) and cables? Since the ratcheting mechanism is in the rear derailleur instead of the shifters it would be a little cheaper to maintain I imagine.

My expectation for the future would be no wiring. Each component having
its own battery and the using wireless communication. Cheap and simple.


Yesterday in Stage 7 you could see some guy grab a handful of brakes because he was about to touch a wheel. The hydraulic disk locked up and top-ended and threw him right on his face. Pretty ugly and EXACTLY what I did on my cyclocross bike.

My disk brake newbie/cross bike newbie failure was to lose the back
wheel braking and cornering in the wet. For some reason I thought disk
brakes and 40mm tyres could change the laws of physics, unfortunately not.

They had the camera directly on one of the bikes in the Tour as he took a near miss and slammed on the disk. The effect was exactly the same that I had on my cyclocross bike coming down a steep off-road hill - The bike turned directly over the front wheel. On flat road that is one thing but going down that steep hill was another thing altogether since I must have fallen at least 10 feet and more likely 12. But that also gave me time to turn and land on my side. And the ground was soft enough not to break bones.

I've never gotten close to going OTB on my discs -- at least no closer than with well adjusted dual pivot rim brakes. Modern road discs usually have a 140mm (small) front rotor and front braking only modestly better than rim brakes in dry weather. Rear braking is considerably stronger, and you have to learn not to be ham-handed. I fish-tailed a few times getting the hang of my rear disc.

I was riding today with a couple of friends -- all of us were on CF and one had Di2. All of our bikes exploded at the same time, and the Di2 caused an electrical fire. One guy was riding discs, and he also went over his bars as his frame exploded. These modern bikes are super dangerous!

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 3:53:36 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 8:59:31 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 1:44:40 AM UTC-7, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 22:01, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:13:51 AM UTC-7, Tom Evans wrote:
On 10/07/2019 21:19, Tom Kunich wrote:

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.

Long term it will probably be cheaper than mechanical.

It simplifies quite a few things. Simpler shifters, no gear cables, no
need for frame additions to route gear cables. The electronic components
will be dirt cheap.

What is the different between internal routing of wires (that come with the group) and cables? Since the ratcheting mechanism is in the rear derailleur instead of the shifters it would be a little cheaper to maintain I imagine.

My expectation for the future would be no wiring. Each component having
its own battery and the using wireless communication. Cheap and simple.


Yesterday in Stage 7 you could see some guy grab a handful of brakes because he was about to touch a wheel. The hydraulic disk locked up and top-ended and threw him right on his face. Pretty ugly and EXACTLY what I did on my cyclocross bike.

My disk brake newbie/cross bike newbie failure was to lose the back
wheel braking and cornering in the wet. For some reason I thought disk
brakes and 40mm tyres could change the laws of physics, unfortunately not.

They had the camera directly on one of the bikes in the Tour as he took a near miss and slammed on the disk. The effect was exactly the same that I had on my cyclocross bike coming down a steep off-road hill - The bike turned directly over the front wheel. On flat road that is one thing but going down that steep hill was another thing altogether since I must have fallen at least 10 feet and more likely 12. But that also gave me time to turn and land on my side. And the ground was soft enough not to break bones.

I've never gotten close to going OTB on my discs -- at least no closer than with well adjusted dual pivot rim brakes. Modern road discs usually have a 140mm (small) front rotor and front braking only modestly better than rim brakes in dry weather. Rear braking is considerably stronger, and you have to learn not to be ham-handed. I fish-tailed a few times getting the hang of my rear disc.

I was riding today with a couple of friends -- all of us were on CF and one had Di2. All of our bikes exploded at the same time, and the Di2 caused an electrical fire. One guy was riding discs, and he also went over his bars as his frame exploded. These modern bikes are super dangerous!

-- Jay Beattie.

Shortly after I got mu Velo Sport with Shimano Dura Ace AX groupset on it (back around 1985) I did a panic stop because a streetcar turning was using part of the lane I was in (the streetcar's back end was swinging into my lane) and the font brake was so positive that the rear wheel lifted rather alarmingly. I immediately released both brakes and then reapplied them. Had I not released the front brake I might have gone over the handlebar or at least wiped out. I figure that when using a new style of brake it's a good idea to go somewhere like and empty parking lot or empty school yard and practice applying the brakes at different speeds and strengths of application by the hands. Then in the real world one will be used to what those brakes do.

Cheers

On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 10:44:43 AM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 1:31:22 AM UTC-7, wrote:

I charge my 7970 battery once every 2 or 3 years. And then its just because I remember to do it, not because the battery is actually dead. The 7970 battery is a big deck of cards size battery that mounts on the downtube.. Unfortunately I don't ride the bike every day or even a lot of miles. And don't really shift a lot either since its flat where I live. And basically do almost all of my shifting with the rear derailleur, not the energy using shifts of the front derailleur.

If you ride where you don't shift and you don't ride all that much, WHY were you willing to pay some exorbitant amount for some comparatively useless electronic shifters?

Because when I do shift, not too often, its really, really fun and easy and precise. I suppose using your logic (????) one could make the case that all geared bikes should be illegal in my area. One speed only. Fixed or freewheel. I'm not that draconian. Exorbitant? Did you see the invoice for my Di2 purchase? I got my 7970 set from Netherlands for less than all the USA retailers were selling 7900 at the time. I got a really good deal. Useless? Electronic shifters improve shifting. Simpler, easier, quicker shifting. Doesn't sound too useless to me.

Tom, you really need to get an education. I understand you brag about being stupid. You can watch many videos of Trumpers bragging about being stupid and uneducated as well. But all it does is clearly illustrate stupidity is a disease that must be eradicated.

On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 12:53:36 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 8:59:31 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 1:44:40 AM UTC-7, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 22:01, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:13:51 AM UTC-7, Tom Evans wrote:
On 10/07/2019 21:19, Tom Kunich wrote:

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.

Long term it will probably be cheaper than mechanical.

It simplifies quite a few things. Simpler shifters, no gear cables, no
need for frame additions to route gear cables. The electronic components
will be dirt cheap.

What is the different between internal routing of wires (that come with the group) and cables? Since the ratcheting mechanism is in the rear derailleur instead of the shifters it would be a little cheaper to maintain I imagine.

My expectation for the future would be no wiring. Each component having
its own battery and the using wireless communication. Cheap and simple.


Yesterday in Stage 7 you could see some guy grab a handful of brakes because he was about to touch a wheel. The hydraulic disk locked up and top-ended and threw him right on his face. Pretty ugly and EXACTLY what I did on my cyclocross bike.

My disk brake newbie/cross bike newbie failure was to lose the back
wheel braking and cornering in the wet. For some reason I thought disk
brakes and 40mm tyres could change the laws of physics, unfortunately not.

They had the camera directly on one of the bikes in the Tour as he took a near miss and slammed on the disk. The effect was exactly the same that I had on my cyclocross bike coming down a steep off-road hill - The bike turned directly over the front wheel. On flat road that is one thing but going down that steep hill was another thing altogether since I must have fallen at least 10 feet and more likely 12. But that also gave me time to turn and land on my side. And the ground was soft enough not to break bones.

I've never gotten close to going OTB on my discs -- at least no closer than with well adjusted dual pivot rim brakes. Modern road discs usually have a 140mm (small) front rotor and front braking only modestly better than rim brakes in dry weather. Rear braking is considerably stronger, and you have to learn not to be ham-handed. I fish-tailed a few times getting the hang of my rear disc.

I was riding today with a couple of friends -- all of us were on CF and one had Di2. All of our bikes exploded at the same time, and the Di2 caused an electrical fire. One guy was riding discs, and he also went over his bars as his frame exploded. These modern bikes are super dangerous!

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay, that it can happen is incontrovertible. Not just my case. You don't have to believe me and most do not as if I could care. It happened to one of the most experienced riders in the world on TV during the Tour de France. On paved road and without him touching another bike.

As far as I could make out, he got an overlap and then the guy in front started coming over on him and he hit the brakes hard. Though perhaps this isn't pertinent to your situation since the disks used on these racers are the 206 mm and most normal road bikes used the smaller 150 or 140 mm and it would take a lot more hand pressure to lock those.

On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 3:14:50 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 10:44:43 AM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 1:31:22 AM UTC-7, wrote:

I charge my 7970 battery once every 2 or 3 years. And then its just because I remember to do it, not because the battery is actually dead. The 7970 battery is a big deck of cards size battery that mounts on the downtube. Unfortunately I don't ride the bike every day or even a lot of miles. And don't really shift a lot either since its flat where I live. And basically do almost all of my shifting with the rear derailleur, not the energy using shifts of the front derailleur.

If you ride where you don't shift and you don't ride all that much, WHY were you willing to pay some exorbitant amount for some comparatively useless electronic shifters?

Because when I do shift, not too often, its really, really fun and easy and precise. I suppose using your logic (????) one could make the case that all geared bikes should be illegal in my area. One speed only. Fixed or freewheel. I'm not that draconian. Exorbitant? Did you see the invoice for my Di2 purchase? I got my 7970 set from Netherlands for less than all the USA retailers were selling 7900 at the time. I got a really good deal. Useless? Electronic shifters improve shifting. Simpler, easier, quicker shifting. Doesn't sound too useless to me.

Tom, you really need to get an education. I understand you brag about being stupid. You can watch many videos of Trumpers bragging about being stupid and uneducated as well. But all it does is clearly illustrate stupidity is a disease that must be eradicated.

Explain why I am speaking like an American and asking why you would bother to pay exorbitant sums to do something that you can do just as easy, accurate and cheaper with standard cable shifters and you're speaking like a Democrat who believes that the government should be all powerful and all restrictive so that there should be laws against things that you think don't make sense.

This is something that the Democrats are rapidly destroying themselves with.. All Republicans since Lincoln have warned the citizens of this country of the dangers of government power. Now, apparently, you believe that not just crime but anything else that crosses your mind should be controlled by the government.

Since you seem to think that government so good at things perhaps you can explain to us all how the three major credit card companies almost NEVER make a mistake on what you owe on your credit card but the government can't even get an accurate count of votes in a county with 8,500 people?

On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 4:13:09 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 12:53:36 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 8:59:31 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 1:44:40 AM UTC-7, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 22:01, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:13:51 AM UTC-7, Tom Evans wrote:
On 10/07/2019 21:19, Tom Kunich wrote:

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.

Long term it will probably be cheaper than mechanical.

It simplifies quite a few things. Simpler shifters, no gear cables, no
need for frame additions to route gear cables. The electronic components
will be dirt cheap.

What is the different between internal routing of wires (that come with the group) and cables? Since the ratcheting mechanism is in the rear derailleur instead of the shifters it would be a little cheaper to maintain I imagine.

My expectation for the future would be no wiring. Each component having
its own battery and the using wireless communication. Cheap and simple.


Yesterday in Stage 7 you could see some guy grab a handful of brakes because he was about to touch a wheel. The hydraulic disk locked up and top-ended and threw him right on his face. Pretty ugly and EXACTLY what I did on my cyclocross bike.

My disk brake newbie/cross bike newbie failure was to lose the back
wheel braking and cornering in the wet. For some reason I thought disk
brakes and 40mm tyres could change the laws of physics, unfortunately not.

They had the camera directly on one of the bikes in the Tour as he took a near miss and slammed on the disk. The effect was exactly the same that I had on my cyclocross bike coming down a steep off-road hill - The bike turned directly over the front wheel. On flat road that is one thing but going down that steep hill was another thing altogether since I must have fallen at least 10 feet and more likely 12. But that also gave me time to turn and land on my side. And the ground was soft enough not to break bones.

I've never gotten close to going OTB on my discs -- at least no closer than with well adjusted dual pivot rim brakes. Modern road discs usually have a 140mm (small) front rotor and front braking only modestly better than rim brakes in dry weather. Rear braking is considerably stronger, and you have to learn not to be ham-handed. I fish-tailed a few times getting the hang of my rear disc.

I was riding today with a couple of friends -- all of us were on CF and one had Di2. All of our bikes exploded at the same time, and the Di2 caused an electrical fire. One guy was riding discs, and he also went over his bars as his frame exploded. These modern bikes are super dangerous!

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay, that it can happen is incontrovertible. Not just my case. You don't have to believe me and most do not as if I could care. It happened to one of the most experienced riders in the world on TV during the Tour de France. On paved road and without him touching another bike.

As far as I could make out, he got an overlap and then the guy in front started coming over on him and he hit the brakes hard. Though perhaps this isn't pertinent to your situation since the disks used on these racers are the 206 mm and most normal road bikes used the smaller 150 or 140 mm and it would take a lot more hand pressure to lock those.

You can go OTB with dual pivots. And are you nuts, the pros are using 140mm/160mm front rotors -- not 206mm. That's tandem size.

-- Jay Beattie.

Electronic shifting is like hydraulic shifting, or hydraulic brakes, or pneumatic shifting-- a solution in search of a problem. Added cost, added points of failure, added difficulty to service and maintain, negligible to nonexistent benefit. A pass-fail intelligence test.

On Sun, 14 Jul 2019 17:56:53 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
wrote:

Electronic shifting is like hydraulic shifting, or hydraulic brakes, or pneumatic shifting-- a solution in search of a problem. Added cost, added points of failure, added difficulty to service and maintain, negligible to nonexistent benefit. A pass-fail intelligence test.

Ah, but as somebody just pointed out electric shifting is so modern,
so up to date. Would one want to be seen as an old fuddy-duddy when
they could just spend a couple of bucks and become a "Modern Cyclist"
:-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 4:52:54 PM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 3:53:36 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 8:59:31 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 1:44:40 AM UTC-7, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 22:01, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:13:51 AM UTC-7, Tom Evans wrote:
On 10/07/2019 21:19, Tom Kunich wrote:

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.

Long term it will probably be cheaper than mechanical.

It simplifies quite a few things. Simpler shifters, no gear cables, no
need for frame additions to route gear cables. The electronic components
will be dirt cheap.

What is the different between internal routing of wires (that come with the group) and cables? Since the ratcheting mechanism is in the rear derailleur instead of the shifters it would be a little cheaper to maintain I imagine.

My expectation for the future would be no wiring. Each component having
its own battery and the using wireless communication. Cheap and simple.


Yesterday in Stage 7 you could see some guy grab a handful of brakes because he was about to touch a wheel. The hydraulic disk locked up and top-ended and threw him right on his face. Pretty ugly and EXACTLY what I did on my cyclocross bike.

My disk brake newbie/cross bike newbie failure was to lose the back
wheel braking and cornering in the wet. For some reason I thought disk
brakes and 40mm tyres could change the laws of physics, unfortunately not.

They had the camera directly on one of the bikes in the Tour as he took a near miss and slammed on the disk. The effect was exactly the same that I had on my cyclocross bike coming down a steep off-road hill - The bike turned directly over the front wheel. On flat road that is one thing but going down that steep hill was another thing altogether since I must have fallen at least 10 feet and more likely 12. But that also gave me time to turn and land on my side. And the ground was soft enough not to break bones.

I've never gotten close to going OTB on my discs -- at least no closer than with well adjusted dual pivot rim brakes. Modern road discs usually have a 140mm (small) front rotor and front braking only modestly better than rim brakes in dry weather. Rear braking is considerably stronger, and you have to learn not to be ham-handed. I fish-tailed a few times getting the hang of my rear disc.

I was riding today with a couple of friends -- all of us were on CF and one had Di2. All of our bikes exploded at the same time, and the Di2 caused an electrical fire. One guy was riding discs, and he also went over his bars as his frame exploded. These modern bikes are super dangerous!

-- Jay Beattie.

Shortly after I got mu Velo Sport with Shimano Dura Ace AX groupset on it (back around 1985) I did a panic stop because a streetcar turning was using part of the lane I was in (the streetcar's back end was swinging into my lane) and the font brake was so positive that the rear wheel lifted rather alarmingly. I immediately released both brakes and then reapplied them. Had I not released the front brake I might have gone over the handlebar or at least wiped out. I figure that when using a new style of brake it's a good idea to go somewhere like and empty parking lot or empty school yard and practice applying the brakes at different speeds and strengths of application by the hands. Then in the real world one will be used to what those brakes do.

That sounds like good advice. It echos what I've been told about riding a
motorcycle - that every spring, one should go practice some quick stops to refresh
one's memory.

The problem I see with those of us that own multiple bikes is that each
different brake set may behave very differently. Old style single pivot side
pulls would take a lot of lever force, dual pivots a lot less, and discs very
little indeed. In a panic situation, that might lead to anything from ineffective
braking to disaster.

- Frank Krygowski