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  #11  
Old July 19th 19, 02:07 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Chalo
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Posts: 5,093
Default More on Slack Spokes

John B. wrote:
If you screw a

nut on a bolt that is threaded half way down the shank eventually you
will reach a point there aren't any more threads and you can't turn
the nut any more, i.e., the threads bottomed out.
It is generally a bad thing as it does tend to damage the threads and
thus weaken the bolt/nut joint.


Right. But a nipple isn't a nut, and after you've fouled a few threads of the nipple, it still has a lot more fully intact threads than the nut did when new. The squished threads can serve as mechanical threadlocking-- which in the case of spokes that go slack often, is more valuable than having surplus threads in good condition.
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  #12  
Old July 19th 19, 02:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default More on Slack Spokes

On 7/18/2019 7:58 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 4:16:18 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:13:22 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 6:48:14 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 5:47:23 PM UTC-7, Chalo wrote:
The length of spokes has little to do with tension; it's all about how tightly you do them up.

Sometimes, I use spokes that are a couple or three mm too long so that interference between the tops of the nipple threads and the unthreaded shank of the spoke serves as a mechanical threadlocker. This can keep non-drive side spokes in highly dished wheels from unscrewing, without resort to adhesives that complicate later service.

If your spokes are so overlong that you don't have several intact threads engaged when you reach your desired tension, that's a reason to switch to shorter spokes. But if you don't have more than 3mm of spoke thread poking out the back of the nipple, you haven't come close to using up your leeway.

In the case of janky plastic rims from anonymous Chinese manufacturers, the concern would not be proper spoke length, but whether the rims can tolerate normal operating tension. You may be set to discover why the manufacturer left your wheels so loose to begin with.

Janky is such a harsh term! We call it a value rim! I think Tom said he bottomed out the spokes. Maybe they only have a few threads to save money. Who knows.

1. In the process of testing carbon handlebars some GCN affiliate was demonstrating how the handlebars could have internal voids leading to failures of the handlebar. Then he just happened to show cross sections of the Chinese rims and the Enve American rims of he same type. The Enve had several voids showing. What would lead you to believe that Made in China would automatically mean less professional workmanship when most carbon fiber parts are being presently made in China? I bought a Look handlebar/stem one piece for 12% of the cost simply because it didn't have the Look decals on it.

2. I have stated in many postings that the spokes were bottoming out in the nipples. In what universe do you suppose Chalo lives in which I have all of the proper wheel building tools and skills and it wouldn't occur to me to tighten the spokes up? I have said here many times that I can build an aluminum wheels and true it in a half hour. But he wants to tell me about wheel building?


I see... you the expert wheel builder are riding around on a cheap
pair of Chinese made wheels with loose spokes... and whining about it.


If my spokes were rattling, I'd whine about it! And then I'd tighten the spokes or dump the wheel -- but I'd whine about it first. You NEVER want to miss an opportunity to whine.

So while I'm at it, I just replaced my old Giro Code SPD/MTB commuter shoes with a new pair of Sidis that hurt my feet damn it! I should have bought three pairs of the Codes. They were dirt cheap on sale at Nashbar six or seven years ago. The heel cup padding evaporated and the ratchets have been replaced a few times, but they are still wearable and super comfortable. I just got sucked into a Sidi sale at Western Bikeworks. Its the shiny object syndrome. I hope they break in.

-- Jay Beattie.

Typical of our age group. Sorry to bear bad news but your
feet, nose and ears are growing. Having sold SiDi for about
40 years, the shoes' fit hasn't changed. When customers say,
"I always wear a 42." and they have grey in their hair I
pull out a 42.5. YMMV oh, yes it does.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #13  
Old July 19th 19, 02:48 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default More on Slack Spokes

On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:07:51 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
wrote:

John B. wrote:
If you screw a

nut on a bolt that is threaded half way down the shank eventually you
will reach a point there aren't any more threads and you can't turn
the nut any more, i.e., the threads bottomed out.
It is generally a bad thing as it does tend to damage the threads and
thus weaken the bolt/nut joint.


Right. But a nipple isn't a nut, and after you've fouled a few threads of the nipple, it still has a lot more fully intact threads than the nut did when new. The squished threads can serve as mechanical threadlocking-- which in the case of spokes that go slack often, is more valuable than having surplus threads in good condition.


You are clutching at details. A nut, or a nipple is a female threaded
fastener and exactly the same dimensions and limits apply as to
minimum depths of thread engagement, clearance of fit and so on.

As to being different than a nut, yes it is a different shape and
likely a different thread engagement and admittedly I've never looked
into the details but I suspect that the nipple may support a greater
load because of greater engagement length, but how much greater and
what is the minimum engagement for maximum loads?

And when you fouled a few threads, you actually foul all the threads
that are engaged which if the spoke end protruded through the nipple
is effectively all the threads.

There are ISO and JIS standards for spokes and nipples but they all
seem to require payment before you can download them.(and I'm too
cheap to buy them :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #14  
Old July 19th 19, 03:55 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default More on Slack Spokes

On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 6:30:47 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/18/2019 7:58 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 4:16:18 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:13:22 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 6:48:14 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 5:47:23 PM UTC-7, Chalo wrote:
The length of spokes has little to do with tension; it's all about how tightly you do them up.

Sometimes, I use spokes that are a couple or three mm too long so that interference between the tops of the nipple threads and the unthreaded shank of the spoke serves as a mechanical threadlocker. This can keep non-drive side spokes in highly dished wheels from unscrewing, without resort to adhesives that complicate later service.

If your spokes are so overlong that you don't have several intact threads engaged when you reach your desired tension, that's a reason to switch to shorter spokes. But if you don't have more than 3mm of spoke thread poking out the back of the nipple, you haven't come close to using up your leeway.

In the case of janky plastic rims from anonymous Chinese manufacturers, the concern would not be proper spoke length, but whether the rims can tolerate normal operating tension. You may be set to discover why the manufacturer left your wheels so loose to begin with.

Janky is such a harsh term! We call it a value rim! I think Tom said he bottomed out the spokes. Maybe they only have a few threads to save money. Who knows.

1. In the process of testing carbon handlebars some GCN affiliate was demonstrating how the handlebars could have internal voids leading to failures of the handlebar. Then he just happened to show cross sections of the Chinese rims and the Enve American rims of he same type. The Enve had several voids showing. What would lead you to believe that Made in China would automatically mean less professional workmanship when most carbon fiber parts are being presently made in China? I bought a Look handlebar/stem one piece for 12% of the cost simply because it didn't have the Look decals on it.

2. I have stated in many postings that the spokes were bottoming out in the nipples. In what universe do you suppose Chalo lives in which I have all of the proper wheel building tools and skills and it wouldn't occur to me to tighten the spokes up? I have said here many times that I can build an aluminum wheels and true it in a half hour. But he wants to tell me about wheel building?

I see... you the expert wheel builder are riding around on a cheap
pair of Chinese made wheels with loose spokes... and whining about it.


If my spokes were rattling, I'd whine about it! And then I'd tighten the spokes or dump the wheel -- but I'd whine about it first. You NEVER want to miss an opportunity to whine.

So while I'm at it, I just replaced my old Giro Code SPD/MTB commuter shoes with a new pair of Sidis that hurt my feet damn it! I should have bought three pairs of the Codes. They were dirt cheap on sale at Nashbar six or seven years ago. The heel cup padding evaporated and the ratchets have been replaced a few times, but they are still wearable and super comfortable. I just got sucked into a Sidi sale at Western Bikeworks. Its the shiny object syndrome. I hope they break in.

-- Jay Beattie.

Typical of our age group. Sorry to bear bad news but your
feet, nose and ears are growing. Having sold SiDi for about
40 years, the shoes' fit hasn't changed. When customers say,
"I always wear a 42." and they have grey in their hair I
pull out a 42.5. YMMV oh, yes it does.


I have Sidi road shoes, too, and the sizing is fine -- except that I've been having problems with both pairs lately because one of my toes has changed shape (apparently). The new shoes have a long and stiff tongue that cuts into my upper instep below the ankle; the tongue is not as well padded as the Giro, and the uppers in general are stiffer. I would expect them to break in.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #15  
Old July 19th 19, 08:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default More on Slack Spokes

On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 21:50:50 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
wrote:

John B. wrote:
And when you fouled a few threads, you actually foul all the threads
that are engaged which if the spoke end protruded through the nipple
is effectively all the threads.


No, that's not true. Remember that the hard stainless spoke threads are unaffected; only the few brass threads that run up on the unthreaded shank are distorted. Since there are many turns of thread inside the nipple, those can serve as a lock while the rest function normally. It's analogous to an all-metal locknut that has been staked to distort the thread slightly on one end.


I see, or maybe I don't see, but I think that what you mean is that
when the threads in a stainless spoke/brass nipple assembly are
damaged only the threads in the brass nipple are damaged, because it
is the softer material. Which is certainly true... but if the threads
in the brass nipple are damaged isn't the strength of the threaded
joint diminished?

Carry it to an extreme and tighten the joint a bit more and as you
say, only the threads in the brass nipple are damaged , but isn't
strength of the joint reduced? After all the damage to the threads is
that they are partially sheered from the parent material and another
turn or two the threads will be completely sheered from the brass
nipple and the strength of the joint will become zero.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #16  
Old July 19th 19, 02:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default More on Slack Spokes

On 7/19/2019 2:17 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 21:50:50 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
wrote:

John B. wrote:
And when you fouled a few threads, you actually foul all the threads
that are engaged which if the spoke end protruded through the nipple
is effectively all the threads.


No, that's not true. Remember that the hard stainless spoke threads are unaffected; only the few brass threads that run up on the unthreaded shank are distorted. Since there are many turns of thread inside the nipple, those can serve as a lock while the rest function normally. It's analogous to an all-metal locknut that has been staked to distort the thread slightly on one end.


I see, or maybe I don't see, but I think that what you mean is that
when the threads in a stainless spoke/brass nipple assembly are
damaged only the threads in the brass nipple are damaged, because it
is the softer material. Which is certainly true... but if the threads
in the brass nipple are damaged isn't the strength of the threaded
joint diminished?

Carry it to an extreme and tighten the joint a bit more and as you
say, only the threads in the brass nipple are damaged , but isn't
strength of the joint reduced? After all the damage to the threads is
that they are partially sheered from the parent material and another
turn or two the threads will be completely sheered from the brass
nipple and the strength of the joint will become zero.



I'm with Chalo on that:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/NIPPLES.JPG

2 or 3 turns work as he described. Ten turns would be as you
predicted.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #17  
Old July 19th 19, 02:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default More on Slack Spokes

On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 6:15:34 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/19/2019 2:17 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 21:50:50 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
wrote:

John B. wrote:
And when you fouled a few threads, you actually foul all the threads
that are engaged which if the spoke end protruded through the nipple
is effectively all the threads.

No, that's not true. Remember that the hard stainless spoke threads are unaffected; only the few brass threads that run up on the unthreaded shank are distorted. Since there are many turns of thread inside the nipple, those can serve as a lock while the rest function normally. It's analogous to an all-metal locknut that has been staked to distort the thread slightly on one end.


I see, or maybe I don't see, but I think that what you mean is that
when the threads in a stainless spoke/brass nipple assembly are
damaged only the threads in the brass nipple are damaged, because it
is the softer material. Which is certainly true... but if the threads
in the brass nipple are damaged isn't the strength of the threaded
joint diminished?

Carry it to an extreme and tighten the joint a bit more and as you
say, only the threads in the brass nipple are damaged , but isn't
strength of the joint reduced? After all the damage to the threads is
that they are partially sheered from the parent material and another
turn or two the threads will be completely sheered from the brass
nipple and the strength of the joint will become zero.



I'm with Chalo on that:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/NIPPLES.JPG

2 or 3 turns work as he described. Ten turns would be as you
predicted.


I hit the end of the threads, and further twisting just winds up the spoke.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #18  
Old July 19th 19, 03:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default More on Slack Spokes

On 7/19/2019 8:33 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 6:15:34 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/19/2019 2:17 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 21:50:50 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
wrote:

John B. wrote:
And when you fouled a few threads, you actually foul all the threads
that are engaged which if the spoke end protruded through the nipple
is effectively all the threads.

No, that's not true. Remember that the hard stainless spoke threads are unaffected; only the few brass threads that run up on the unthreaded shank are distorted. Since there are many turns of thread inside the nipple, those can serve as a lock while the rest function normally. It's analogous to an all-metal locknut that has been staked to distort the thread slightly on one end.

I see, or maybe I don't see, but I think that what you mean is that
when the threads in a stainless spoke/brass nipple assembly are
damaged only the threads in the brass nipple are damaged, because it
is the softer material. Which is certainly true... but if the threads
in the brass nipple are damaged isn't the strength of the threaded
joint diminished?

Carry it to an extreme and tighten the joint a bit more and as you
say, only the threads in the brass nipple are damaged , but isn't
strength of the joint reduced? After all the damage to the threads is
that they are partially sheered from the parent material and another
turn or two the threads will be completely sheered from the brass
nipple and the strength of the joint will become zero.



I'm with Chalo on that:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/NIPPLES.JPG

2 or 3 turns work as he described. Ten turns would be as you
predicted.


I hit the end of the threads, and further twisting just winds up the spoke.



Brands of nipples vary in that. DT Swiss brass nipples go
right past the end.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #19  
Old July 19th 19, 04:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,511
Default More on Slack Spokes

On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 9:15:34 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/19/2019 2:17 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 21:50:50 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
wrote:

John B. wrote:
And when you fouled a few threads, you actually foul all the threads
that are engaged which if the spoke end protruded through the nipple
is effectively all the threads.

No, that's not true. Remember that the hard stainless spoke threads are unaffected; only the few brass threads that run up on the unthreaded shank are distorted. Since there are many turns of thread inside the nipple, those can serve as a lock while the rest function normally. It's analogous to an all-metal locknut that has been staked to distort the thread slightly on one end.


I see, or maybe I don't see, but I think that what you mean is that
when the threads in a stainless spoke/brass nipple assembly are
damaged only the threads in the brass nipple are damaged, because it
is the softer material. Which is certainly true... but if the threads
in the brass nipple are damaged isn't the strength of the threaded
joint diminished?

Carry it to an extreme and tighten the joint a bit more and as you
say, only the threads in the brass nipple are damaged , but isn't
strength of the joint reduced? After all the damage to the threads is
that they are partially sheered from the parent material and another
turn or two the threads will be completely sheered from the brass
nipple and the strength of the joint will become zero.



I'm with Chalo on that:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/NIPPLES.JPG

2 or 3 turns work as he described. Ten turns would be as you
predicted.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


+1

- Frank Krygowski
  #20  
Old July 19th 19, 06:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default More on Slack Spokes

On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 5:58:31 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 4:16:18 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:13:22 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 6:48:14 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 5:47:23 PM UTC-7, Chalo wrote:
The length of spokes has little to do with tension; it's all about how tightly you do them up.

Sometimes, I use spokes that are a couple or three mm too long so that interference between the tops of the nipple threads and the unthreaded shank of the spoke serves as a mechanical threadlocker. This can keep non-drive side spokes in highly dished wheels from unscrewing, without resort to adhesives that complicate later service.

If your spokes are so overlong that you don't have several intact threads engaged when you reach your desired tension, that's a reason to switch to shorter spokes. But if you don't have more than 3mm of spoke thread poking out the back of the nipple, you haven't come close to using up your leeway.

In the case of janky plastic rims from anonymous Chinese manufacturers, the concern would not be proper spoke length, but whether the rims can tolerate normal operating tension. You may be set to discover why the manufacturer left your wheels so loose to begin with.

Janky is such a harsh term! We call it a value rim! I think Tom said he bottomed out the spokes. Maybe they only have a few threads to save money. Who knows.

1. In the process of testing carbon handlebars some GCN affiliate was demonstrating how the handlebars could have internal voids leading to failures of the handlebar. Then he just happened to show cross sections of the Chinese rims and the Enve American rims of he same type. The Enve had several voids showing. What would lead you to believe that Made in China would automatically mean less professional workmanship when most carbon fiber parts are being presently made in China? I bought a Look handlebar/stem one piece for 12% of the cost simply because it didn't have the Look decals on it.

2. I have stated in many postings that the spokes were bottoming out in the nipples. In what universe do you suppose Chalo lives in which I have all of the proper wheel building tools and skills and it wouldn't occur to me to tighten the spokes up? I have said here many times that I can build an aluminum wheels and true it in a half hour. But he wants to tell me about wheel building?


I see... you the expert wheel builder are riding around on a cheap
pair of Chinese made wheels with loose spokes... and whining about it.


If my spokes were rattling, I'd whine about it! And then I'd tighten the spokes or dump the wheel -- but I'd whine about it first. You NEVER want to miss an opportunity to whine.

So while I'm at it, I just replaced my old Giro Code SPD/MTB commuter shoes with a new pair of Sidis that hurt my feet damn it! I should have bought three pairs of the Codes. They were dirt cheap on sale at Nashbar six or seven years ago. The heel cup padding evaporated and the ratchets have been replaced a few times, but they are still wearable and super comfortable. I just got sucked into a Sidi sale at Western Bikeworks. Its the shiny object syndrome. I hope they break in.

-- Jay Beattie.


Exactly where did I ever say that the spokes were "rattling"? Are you going for the John B and Chalo awards for misrepresentation?
 




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