A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Cleaning of chain and all components



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old July 19th 19, 05:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Cleaning of chain and all components

On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 7:42:12 AM UTC-7, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:36:23 +1000,
James wrote:
On 19/7/19 9:02 am, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 3:32:37 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:


The other advantage of a wax based lube, or at least my
experience, has been, that it doesn't seem to wash off in the
rain.

Meh. Everything washes off in the rain. It's just a matter of
time. Parffin flakes off and doesn't give you an corrosion
protection. I just use the Lou method -- rise, lather repeat.
I'm not going to be hanging out in the garage melting wax,
particularly since most of my chains have single-use
quick-links.


For neat paraffin wax, I agree and it was my experience that
the chain would rust after a wet ride. So I added oil to the
wax. The result is good corrosion resistance and a relatively
clean and smooth running chain.


I agree with Jay and James. I do use straight canning wax, and
find that it comes right off if I ride in anything more than a
sprinkle. I just don't ride in the rain much, and when I do get
caught out will right after drop the chain into my hot wax cooker
and drive off the water.

If I ride in the rain long enough, the chain will start squeaking.
I carry a small bottle of lube to use if the squeaking gets too
obnoxious.


If you keep riding in the rain, the water works as a lubricant. The real noise starts when it dries out. Some rather wimpy lubes like TriFlow along with a lax cleaning regimen (allowing some build up of gunk) produce a pretty good protective layer that holds up in the rain. I did a 4.5 hour ride a few weeks ago and ended up doing the first 3 hours in unexpected rain on a racing bike with no fenders. The last hour and a half was in sunshine, and my goopy TriFlo treated chain stayed pretty quiet the whole time. Other noise sources are dry pulleys and cleats, but my bike stayed pretty quiet on that ride. Squeaking pulleys and cleats drive me crazy. The longest ride I've done in continuous rain was about 95 miles, with a 14.5 mile climb straddling the mid-point, and by the time I got home, I don't think there was grease or oil anywhere on that bike -- and I was too frozen to care.

-- Jay Beattie.


Ads
  #32  
Old July 19th 19, 05:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Theodore Heise[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 132
Default Cleaning of chain and all components

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:15:50 -0700 (PDT),
jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 7:42:12 AM UTC-7, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:36:23 +1000,
James wrote:
On 19/7/19 9:02 am, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 3:32:37 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

The other advantage of a wax based lube, or at least my
experience, has been, that it doesn't seem to wash off in
the rain.

Meh. Everything washes off in the rain. It's just a
matter of time. Parffin flakes off and doesn't give you an
corrosion protection.


For neat paraffin wax, I agree and it was my experience
that the chain would rust after a wet ride. So I added oil
to the wax. The result is good corrosion resistance and a
relatively clean and smooth running chain.


I agree with Jay and James. I do use straight canning wax,
and find that it comes right off if I ride in anything more
than a sprinkle. I just don't ride in the rain much, and when
I do get caught out will right after drop the chain into my
hot wax cooker and drive off the water.

If I ride in the rain long enough, the chain will start
squeaking. I carry a small bottle of lube to use if the
squeaking gets too obnoxious.


If you keep riding in the rain, the water works as a lubricant.
The real noise starts when it dries out.


You are probably right. Years ago, a riding buddy (who also used
wax) and I got caught in rain for many miles. At one point we
were using our water bottles to squirt our chains--mostly joking
about it. But I do have a vague memory that the water helped!


...Some rather wimpy lubes like TriFlow along with a lax
cleaning regimen (allowing some build up of gunk) produce a
pretty good protective layer that holds up in the rain. I did a
4.5 hour ride a few weeks ago and ended up doing the first 3
hours in unexpected rain on a racing bike with no fenders. The
last hour and a half was in sunshine, and my goopy TriFlo
treated chain stayed pretty quiet the whole time. Other noise
sources are dry pulleys and cleats, but my bike stayed pretty
quiet on that ride. Squeaking pulleys and cleats drive me
crazy. The longest ride I've done in continuous rain was about
95 miles, with a 14.5 mile climb straddling the mid-point, and
by the time I got home, I don't think there was grease or oil
anywhere on that bike -- and I was too frozen to care.


Ugh. A riding buddy (same one) and I did a ride across Nebraska a
time or two. One year we had rain more days than not. One of the
longest was in western Nebraska, where the soil is pretty sandy.
By the end of the day, we had sand and road grit in places on our
bodies one wouldn't think accessible.

That day was pretty warm, so not really dangerous. Later that
same week, we encountered rain and dropping temps. At one point
it was sleeting. The organizers pulled lots of people off the
route with hypothermia. I was slurring my words, but finished the
course somehow. The next day I was wiped out, and riding at all
was harder than I ever remember.

--
Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA
  #33  
Old July 19th 19, 06:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Cleaning of chain and all components

On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 4:02:18 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 3:32:37 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 07:13:01 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 2:49:02 AM UTC-4, James wrote:
On 18/7/19 1:39 pm, AK wrote:
I spent about 3.5 hrs. cleaning my chain and everything it comes in contact with.

What a tedious job.

Used the following:

1. Engine cleaner
2. Paint thinner
3. Used toothbrush
4. Occasional foul language

I mentioned it to my friendly bike repair guy and he said many do not realize the damage a dirty chain does to the bearings etc.

It shortens their life.

I think it helped as I think I can go around 3 mph faster.

Any other maintenance tips?


Don't use the same lubricant again.

Get some candle wax (paraffin wax) and oil (paraffin oil or even EP gear
oil). Heat the wax in an old pot and mix in about the same volume or a
bit less, of oil.

Immerse your chain in the hot oil/wax solution. Let it cook for 5 minutes.

When it is al dente, remove it carefully with a pair of pliers or hook
it out with a piece of wire (like and old spoke). Careful it will be
hot. Let it drip off and cool down. Install it on the bike when you
can handle it without burning yourself.

Use a quick link (Connex are about the best) to facilitate easy chain
removal and installation.

About every 1000km, take the chain off and cook it in your wax/oil mix.

Your running gear will stay pretty clean, and any build up will be easy
to brush off, and won't go far from where the chain engages the other parts.

I agree in general with James' ideas. In my experience, wax with a small amount
(maybe 5%) oil mixed into it is the best lubricant.

I don't melt candles. I bought paraffin wax (as used for canning jelly at home)
in the grocery store. One pound costs maybe two dollars and lasts the rest of
your life. You can leave the remainder to your grandchildren. Melt it very
carefully (it's flammable) and blend in a bit of oil or gear lube. Let it
solidify and save it.

My most unusual technique is to not remove the chain from the bike. Instead,
with the bike on a workstand and with sheet metal protecting the frame and tire,
I use a low-flame torch to warm 10" of chain, crayon on the wax-oil mix, then
reheat until the wax crumbs melt and flow into the chain. Backpedal to access
the next 10" of chain and repeat. When the whole chain is done, wipe off the
excess with paper towels.

For me, this is easier than the hot pot method; but either way works.

It's very likely that one poster here will jump in and say "Never use paraffin
to lubricate a chain!" and post decades old statements from others claiming it's
not effective. He will pointedly ignore results of tests that prove this is both
the lowest friction lube, and the one that makes chains last longest. It also
keeps your bike far cleaner than any liquid lubricant.

But to be clear, if you choose instead to keep using other liquid lubricants,
you're welcome to do that.

- Frank Krygowski


The other advantage of a wax based lube, or at least my experience,
has been, that it doesn't seem to wash off in the rain.


Meh. Everything washes off in the rain. It's just a matter of time. Parffin flakes off and doesn't give you an corrosion protection. I just use the Lou method -- rise, lather repeat. I'm not going to be hanging out in the garage melting wax, particularly since most of my chains have single-use quick-links.

-- Jay Beattie.


That has been my experience as well. I stick to "wax" lube products such as Snow Wax.
  #34  
Old July 19th 19, 06:17 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Cleaning of chain and all components

On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 5:43:16 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/18/2019 5:54 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:11:35 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 5:39:48 AM UTC+2, AK wrote:
I spent about 3.5 hrs. cleaning my chain and everything it comes in contact with.

What a tedious job.

Used the following:

1. Engine cleaner
2. Paint thinner
3. Used toothbrush
4. Occasional foul language

I mentioned it to my friendly bike repair guy and he said many do not realize the damage a dirty chain does to the bearings etc.

It shortens their life.

I think it helped as I think I can go around 3 mph faster.

Any other maintenance tips?

Thanks,
Andy

It always too soon to quit.

If you ride a 15 dollar chain and a 30 dolar cassette and you are not a bike nerd like some of us don't do that again. Wipe your chain as clean as possible with a rag before lubing. Lube regularly with whatever oily stuff and ride the **** out of your chain until some gears starts to skip. Then replace the chain and cassette. If you ride a 45 dollar chain and a 200 dollar cassette pay attention to some of the advice you get.


Lou, my 2 cents.


If you aren't a "bike nerd" take the bike to the shop and let somebody
else do it :-)



We listen politely to 'please clean my chain' as we write
"new chain' on the service order. Saves customer a pile of
money.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


I can't even imagine someone asking a shop to clean a chain at the normal hourly rates.
  #35  
Old July 19th 19, 06:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,422
Default Cleaning of chain and all components

On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 11:08:53 AM UTC+1, Duane wrote:
AK wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 5:54:16 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:11:35 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 5:39:48 AM UTC+2, AK wrote:
I spent about 3.5 hrs. cleaning my chain and everything it comes in contact with.

What a tedious job.

Used the following:

1. Engine cleaner
2. Paint thinner
3. Used toothbrush
4. Occasional foul language

I mentioned it to my friendly bike repair guy and he said many do not
realize the damage a dirty chain does to the bearings etc.

It shortens their life.

I think it helped as I think I can go around 3 mph faster.

Any other maintenance tips?

Thanks,
Andy

It always too soon to quit.

If you ride a 15 dollar chain and a 30 dolar cassette and you are not a
bike nerd like some of us don't do that again. Wipe your chain as clean
as possible with a rag before lubing. Lube regularly with whatever oily
stuff and ride the **** out of your chain until some gears starts to
skip. Then replace the chain and cassette. If you ride a 45 dollar
chain and a 200 dollar cassette pay attention to some of the advice you get.


Lou, my 2 cents.

If you aren't a "bike nerd" take the bike to the shop and let somebody
else do it :-)
--
cheers,

John B.


Yeah right.

Pay him $25/hr X 3.5.

Andy


I use a Park chain cleaner tool. Clip on, fill with degreaser, run 30-40
crank strokes, change degreaser and repeat. Take a brush and clean the
cassette and cage with degreaser. Takes 10-15 minutes. Maybe 20 with a
beer in one hand. When dry lube the chain, run through the gears and wipe
off the chain.


The trick is to oil the chain sparingly between cleaning, wiping it before
to remove grit and after to remove excess oil. Takes another 5 minutes
and makes the cleaning a lot easier. Most people use too much oil and it
attracts grit.

I never tried wax but the people here recommending it sound like they know
what they’re talking about.

--
duane


You could just buy wax in a bottle, Duane, instead of messing around with a cooker. I used Finish Line white wax, from a bottle, for a year or two, and it works. Another poster mentioned that he still has half a bottle of Finish Line white wax left, and so do it; it's economical stuff.

Don't park your bike on your wife's carpets while you're using it though: it drops little gray balls of mixed wax and gunge wherever you ride or wheel the bike.

Andre Jute
Clean hands
  #36  
Old July 19th 19, 07:17 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 401
Default Cleaning of chain and all components

On 19/07/2019 1:42 p.m., Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 11:08:53 AM UTC+1, Duane wrote:
AK wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 5:54:16 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:11:35 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 5:39:48 AM UTC+2, AK wrote:
I spent about 3.5 hrs. cleaning my chain and everything it comes in contact with.

What a tedious job.

Used the following:

1. Engine cleaner
2. Paint thinner
3. Used toothbrush
4. Occasional foul language

I mentioned it to my friendly bike repair guy and he said many do not
realize the damage a dirty chain does to the bearings etc.

It shortens their life.

I think it helped as I think I can go around 3 mph faster.

Any other maintenance tips?

Thanks,
Andy

It always too soon to quit.

If you ride a 15 dollar chain and a 30 dolar cassette and you are not a
bike nerd like some of us don't do that again. Wipe your chain as clean
as possible with a rag before lubing. Lube regularly with whatever oily
stuff and ride the **** out of your chain until some gears starts to
skip. Then replace the chain and cassette. If you ride a 45 dollar
chain and a 200 dollar cassette pay attention to some of the advice you get.


Lou, my 2 cents.

If you aren't a "bike nerd" take the bike to the shop and let somebody
else do it :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

Yeah right.

Pay him $25/hr X 3.5.

Andy


I use a Park chain cleaner tool. Clip on, fill with degreaser, run 30-40
crank strokes, change degreaser and repeat. Take a brush and clean the
cassette and cage with degreaser. Takes 10-15 minutes. Maybe 20 with a
beer in one hand. When dry lube the chain, run through the gears and wipe
off the chain.


The trick is to oil the chain sparingly between cleaning, wiping it before
to remove grit and after to remove excess oil. Takes another 5 minutes
and makes the cleaning a lot easier. Most people use too much oil and it
attracts grit.

I never tried wax but the people here recommending it sound like they know
what they’re talking about.

--
duane


You could just buy wax in a bottle, Duane, instead of messing around with a cooker. I used Finish Line white wax, from a bottle, for a year or two, and it works. Another poster mentioned that he still has half a bottle of Finish Line white wax left, and so do it; it's economical stuff.

Don't park your bike on your wife's carpets while you're using it though: it drops little gray balls of mixed wax and gunge wherever you ride or wheel the bike.

Andre Jute
Clean hands


I have a friend that uses the finish line white wax. Seems to work for
her. I've been using the finish line dry lube for ages and haven't seen
a reason to change.

Maybe if I did the mileage that James does or rode in the conditions
that Jay does I'd have to reconsider.
  #37  
Old July 19th 19, 11:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Cleaning of chain and all components

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 14:17:20 -0400, Duane
wrote:

On 19/07/2019 1:42 p.m., Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 11:08:53 AM UTC+1, Duane wrote:
AK wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 5:54:16 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:11:35 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 5:39:48 AM UTC+2, AK wrote:
I spent about 3.5 hrs. cleaning my chain and everything it comes in contact with.

What a tedious job.

Used the following:

1. Engine cleaner
2. Paint thinner
3. Used toothbrush
4. Occasional foul language

I mentioned it to my friendly bike repair guy and he said many do not
realize the damage a dirty chain does to the bearings etc.

It shortens their life.

I think it helped as I think I can go around 3 mph faster.

Any other maintenance tips?

Thanks,
Andy

It always too soon to quit.

If you ride a 15 dollar chain and a 30 dolar cassette and you are not a
bike nerd like some of us don't do that again. Wipe your chain as clean
as possible with a rag before lubing. Lube regularly with whatever oily
stuff and ride the **** out of your chain until some gears starts to
skip. Then replace the chain and cassette. If you ride a 45 dollar
chain and a 200 dollar cassette pay attention to some of the advice you get.


Lou, my 2 cents.

If you aren't a "bike nerd" take the bike to the shop and let somebody
else do it :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

Yeah right.

Pay him $25/hr X 3.5.

Andy


I use a Park chain cleaner tool. Clip on, fill with degreaser, run 30-40
crank strokes, change degreaser and repeat. Take a brush and clean the
cassette and cage with degreaser. Takes 10-15 minutes. Maybe 20 with a
beer in one hand. When dry lube the chain, run through the gears and wipe
off the chain.


The trick is to oil the chain sparingly between cleaning, wiping it before
to remove grit and after to remove excess oil. Takes another 5 minutes
and makes the cleaning a lot easier. Most people use too much oil and it
attracts grit.

I never tried wax but the people here recommending it sound like they know
what they’re talking about.

--
duane


You could just buy wax in a bottle, Duane, instead of messing around with a cooker. I used Finish Line white wax, from a bottle, for a year or two, and it works. Another poster mentioned that he still has half a bottle of Finish Line white wax left, and so do it; it's economical stuff.

Don't park your bike on your wife's carpets while you're using it though: it drops little gray balls of mixed wax and gunge wherever you ride or wheel the bike.

Andre Jute
Clean hands


I have a friend that uses the finish line white wax. Seems to work for
her. I've been using the finish line dry lube for ages and haven't seen
a reason to change.

Maybe if I did the mileage that James does or rode in the conditions
that Jay does I'd have to reconsider.


As some famous person once said," use whatever works for you" :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #38  
Old July 19th 19, 11:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Cleaning of chain and all components

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:06:15 -0400, Duane
wrote:

On 18/07/2019 2:25 p.m., AK wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 1:02:13 PM UTC-5, Bertrand wrote:
I spent about 3.5 hrs. cleaning my chain and everything it comes in contact with.

What a tedious job.

Used the following:

1. Engine cleaner
2. Paint thinner
3. Used toothbrush
4. Occasional foul language

I mentioned it to my friendly bike repair guy and he said many do not realize
the damage a dirty chain does to the bearings etc.

It shortens their life.

I think it helped as I think I can go around 3 mph faster.

Any other maintenance tips?


I wipe down the chain and derailleur pulleys after each ride, just back-pedaling
the chain through a rag. Only takes a few seconds, and keeps crud from building up.


Thanks for all the ideas.

I forgot to mention that I USED to use oil and Amzoil Synthetic Grease on my chain.

Andy

Grease?


That is what Shimano puts on the chain before they sell to you :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #39  
Old July 20th 19, 12:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Cleaning of chain and all components

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:04:36 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Frank Krygowski writes:

On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 9:09:12 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:


I do something similar. When I initially decided to go with the wax
lube I went to a "candle store" where they sell mainly candles for
church or temple affairs but also sell wax and candle wicks and so on
for those that want to do it themselves. Anyway, they had both
paraffin and bee's wax so I bought the paraffin and a little bee's wax
(it is bloody expensive ) thinking that the bee's wax would make the
paraffin a bit more flexible, it didn't, or I didn't use enough, so I
added some light viscosity synthetic grease and that has worked real
well.

I don't start out on a ride if it is raining but I've been caught a
number of times in some pretty good showers and as far as I can see it
has never washed the wax airway and I've never seen a spot of rust on
the chain.... but to be honest I never saw any rust when I was using
spray lube on the chain either :-)


+1 except my bees' wax is still unused. I bought it on a whim and haven't used
it for anything.


Bees' wax melts at a considerably higher temperature than paraffin wax,
not an advantage for chain wax (or kink). It also burns cleaner and
smells nicer when burning, not an advantage either. It's better for
waxing thread than paraffin, which is why I have some.


According to the Wikki paraffin wax melts at 115 - 154 Degrees (F)
while bee's wax melts at 145 - 147 degrees (F) :-)

I suggest that the waxing of thread using bees wax is "normal" simply
because it has been used for hundreds of years while paraffin wax was
"discovered" less than 200 years ago.

I might add that I have used paraffin wax to wax thread when sewing
sails and it worked perfectly well although it does seem to make the
thread stiffer but still very usable although my feeling is that bee's
wax is perhaps the better solution.

Although, of course the reason to wax thread is because it acts as a
lubricant to allow sewing heavier cloth easier.

I normally don't start a ride if it's waiting; but recently, as we
rolled our bikes out
the door to fetch groceries, it started sprinkling. We stopped for a moment,
then said "Oh, what the heck" and rode to the store. I was a little proud of us.

- Frank Krygowski

--
cheers,

John B.

  #40  
Old July 20th 19, 01:43 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Cleaning of chain and all components

On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 6:54:57 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:06:15 -0400, Duane
wrote:

On 18/07/2019 2:25 p.m., AK wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 1:02:13 PM UTC-5, Bertrand wrote:
I spent about 3.5 hrs. cleaning my chain and everything it comes in contact with.

What a tedious job.

Used the following:

1. Engine cleaner
2. Paint thinner
3. Used toothbrush
4. Occasional foul language

I mentioned it to my friendly bike repair guy and he said many do not realize
the damage a dirty chain does to the bearings etc.

It shortens their life.

I think it helped as I think I can go around 3 mph faster.

Any other maintenance tips?


I wipe down the chain and derailleur pulleys after each ride, just back-pedaling
the chain through a rag. Only takes a few seconds, and keeps crud from building up.

Thanks for all the ideas.

I forgot to mention that I USED to use oil and Amzoil Synthetic Grease on my chain.

Andy

Grease?


That is what Shimano puts on the chain before they sell to you :-)
--
cheers,

John B.


And which I remove before using the chain as that sticky substance REALLY holds the fine grit. It does make a fantastic grinding compound though.

Cheers
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Chain Cleaning soup[_7_] UK 19 January 5th 13 02:01 PM
Cleaning one's chain Brendo Australia 20 February 1st 07 12:10 AM
steam cleaning bicycle frame and components Cyclopath! - Keiron Techniques 11 October 20th 06 10:17 PM
Yet another chain cleaning tip Gary Smiley Techniques 11 October 17th 06 09:01 PM
chain cleaning TomCAt General 54 September 16th 05 04:00 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.