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Electronic Shifting Replay



 
 
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  #21  
Old July 19th 19, 06:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Electronic Shifting Replay

On 7/19/2019 12:12 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 3:29:54 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 9:53:03 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 8:27:47 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 3:20:11 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 10:10:03 AM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 12:57:46 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:


snippity snip snip snip

Occasionally it passes through my head to build a streamliner and take it to the Salt Flats. That is the only way that I'd ever ride a recumbent.



Don't bother - Art Arfons did that already

http://www.speedace.info/art_arfons.htm

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


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  #22  
Old July 19th 19, 06:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Electronic Shifting Replay

On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 6:12:18 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 3:29:54 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 9:53:03 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 8:27:47 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 3:20:11 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 10:10:03 AM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 12:57:46 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
It is kind of weird that you can do absolutely everything hydraulically that you can do with electronics. Just that it is so damned complicated and expensive that no one wants to do it that way.

Another thing is that you can use gear mechanisms to accomplish these things as well but with mechanical losses though of what amount I couldn't even guess.

Was it Andre or Joerg that was talking about a 14 speed internally geared rear hub. That would truly be interesting to ride and see how much losses it generated versus our normal chain and derailleurs.

I run a Rohloff Speed 14 hub gearbox on my everyday bike (the only one actually in use, the others being in the heated loft, once the servant quarters, three storeys up. The bike is from the German baukast (custom builder) Utopia-velo and is a 1935 crossframe-mixte design in modern times meticulously redeveloped from the ground up around Schwalbe's Big Apple balloons, the Rohloff gearbox (Utopia was the first OEM to fit Rohloff boxes, and basically established what was intended as a pretty agricultural mud-plugging box as a deluxe touring box), and whatever else will aid a customer's comfort and ease of operation, without considerations of cost or what roadies are likely to think. Load capacity is 170kg, and the bike is much proven in circumnavigations. Mine is used for recreational rides, utility rides, as a workhorse for carrying hefty painting gear to where I want to paint, and for light touring.

I've developed the bike to virtually zero-service, zero cleaning, zero attention. My chain, for instance, runs inside as near a fully sealed enclosure as you can imagine, and it is never opened, serviced, oiled, cleaned or even wiped down for its entire life; it runs for its entire life, about three times as far as I used to go on a chain before, on its factory lube. On the Thorn forum there are several essays by me describing the development procedure and the logic for each step. I didn't post those to RBT because I'm long since fed up with the tiresome clowns here wrecking every working thread in pursuit of their dumb vendettas.

Turning now to the so-called efficiency "loss" of the Rohloff, you have to be a quarterwit roadie or an ivory tower clown without any real world experience to believe in its occurrence anywhere outside a laboratory, and at that a laboratory with an airlock entry. Any old engineer with a bit of lab experience can design a set of tests to prove derailleurs are the most efficient drive form likely to be cost-efficient on a bike -- in the lab. The derailleur has survived so long for good reasons. The minute you take that Rohloff and that derailleur system out of the lab door, dirt starts accumulating on the derailleur and interfering with its efficiency, but not on the Rohloff, which is totally enclosed and running in an oil bath (which you can further tailor by operating it on the thinner winter oil to really trounce the derailleur in a very shot distance -- I run mine year-round on the all-seasons i.e. summer oil but put in only enough to coat all the gears, so there's nothing sloshing around). Of course someone will now argue that the Rohloff sprocket is as exposed as the derailleur cluster to dirt. But you can cover the Rohloff chain and gear wheelies very efficiently with a Chainglider (the supremacy of which I've also described on the Thorn forum, where with the other members who fitted it on my recommendation we have probably over a 100k miles of experience with it). There are photos on the Thorn forum of the inside of my Chainglider after I ran the chain in it for 4500km on the factory lube, zero extra oil, zero service, first time I opened it with serious intent -- and it is clean, and the chain looks new. As you can see, for a moment's worth of thought, this is a loaded deck against the derailleur, and was from the moment the two transmission systems rolled out of the lab.

We all know how fast the efficiency of a perfectly clean derailleur system falls off once it gets road dust on it. The only thing that is new here is that the efficiency of the Rohloff transmission does not fall at all, especially if the chain, sprocket and chainring are also competently enclosed. The Rohloff maintains its laboratory efficiency for the full 5000km or one year between oil services of the box (note that, Rolf -- your guarantee, which is effectively for your life unless you abuse the gearbox, depends on doing the oil changes on schedule). I would bet money that as little as few miles from home a Rohloff is routinely more efficient than the derailleur system that started clean.

I actually think the other argument, that the Rohloff weighs more than a derailleur system, is more logical, if by relative magnitude too petty to be convincing. The weight difference, if any, is so little that it could amount to a one-foot rise in several miles. So, while the argument on weight is more rational than the one on efficiency, it is not all that relevant, except perhaps in racing.

Steve Weeks says
in some applications the losses are tolerable.

I would say in virtually any everyday situation (possibly excluding racing) with the comparative measurement taken further than x miles from base, there are no losses for the Rohloff HGB compared to a derailleur.

The only questions remaining a

a) For any particular Rohloff owner's regularly ridden roads, at how many miles from base does the efficiency of an optimal derailleur system fall to that of the Rohloff? We know the mechanical efficiency differential is pretty small but I think it would be better grasped as a road distance. Call this distance x.

b) At which fraction or multiple of x beyond the first x does the efficiency of a derailleur system fall below the constant efficiency of the Rohloff by the same amount as the derailleur was superior in the laboratory? Call this likely imperceptible but measurable differential d1.

c) At what distance from base, expressed as multiples of d1, will the average cyclist notice that the derailleur system is less efficient than the Rohloff? Call this multiple d2.

My opinion, having used both systems, is that x, the distance of two perfectly tuned systems to equal efficiency, on my all-tarmac but rurally dusty lanes, could be 5-10 miles. Guesstimating (tm Jeff Liebermann), d1 might be the same.

Since in everyday use, starting on perfectly laboratory-grade clean derailleurs and Rohloff transmissions reveals no practical difference in efficiency to openminded riders, d2 seems to me likely to be quite a distance, at least under my relatively clean conditions, say several or many day rides, Perhaps even a couple of thousand miles: some of my riding companions never clean their bikes (they buy near-new aspirational bikes for fifty bucks out of the garages of onetime would-be bicyclists and ride them into the ground, then buy a new one) and their bikes definitely feel stiff to pedal.

Andre Jute
A little, a very little thought will suffice -- Maynard Keynes

PS: Y'all understand that a Rohloff is a handbuilt, handfitted gearbox, don't you? A Shimano machine-huilt HGB starts amazingly smooth and wears out from there; the MTBF is about 50,000km, at which point you throw it away because it isn't worth rebuilding. A Rohloff gearbox is run in, and then slowly reaches a plateau of service the extent of which no one knows, though we can guess by the experience of permanent tourers (to make Tom's point) that it is in excess of 250,000km, I repeat, nobody knows how far in excess. It takes somewhere between 3000 and 8000km (in my opinion) to run in a Rohloff, so for the discussion above we have to assume the box being tested is run in. Chalo once said something to the effect that a Rohloff gearbox is run in about the time a Shimano gearbox dies, so he might have a different view on how long a Rohloff box runs in; I bow to superior experience. I mention it though because we can't set the period of run-in of the Rohloff box longer than the entire service life of the competing derailleur system -- we'd be laughed out of the Double-Blind Testers' Club.

Apparently, Jute still gets paid by the word. Pity.

- Frank Krygowski

Apparently poor Franki-boy is reacting to this from me:

On the Thorn forum there are several essays by me describing the development procedure and the logic for each step. I didn't post those to RBT because I'm long since fed up with the tiresome clowns here wrecking every working thread in pursuit of their dumb vendettas.

Yo, Franki-boy, you just self-identified as a one of "the tiresome clowns here wrecking every working thread in pursuit of their dumb vendettas". When can we expect you to self-identify as a woman demanding an abortion?

And here I thought that Franki-boy, to preserve his dignity, which is all he has, claims not to read my posts.

Andre Jute
I've never been paid by the word, but Mark Twain and Philip K. Dick we you're sneering at great American writers, Franki-boy.

The Rohloff sounds pretty amazing but it is also $1,600.


You pay for permanent quality, but actually less than you think. It doesn't take many top gruppos that last a finite distance before you've covered the price of a Rohloff with its practically infinite lifespan, and from there on in it's all a freebie. What does a top Shimano cost? How long does it last? How many could you buy for the price of a Rohloff?

It does seem to me that recumbents would really benefit with a drive shaft to the rear where it could certainly make a good connection through a chain drive to the Rohloff.


I've never had a full recumbent (we could ask Rolf, who has a recumbent), though I had a semi-recumbent briefly (I sold it when a guy on the street, seeing one for the first time, offered me more for it than I paid) and was glad to return to my upright touring bikes, which put my head above a Range Rover's roof, so that I seem more threatening to SUV drivers than they do to me. But I once planned to buy a Scooterbike, especially when it turned into Utopia's well-developed Phoenix*, and I studied all the questions associated with such a design closely. One point I remember well is that the extra-long chain run is no problem, because the Rohloff anyway requires a pretty slack chain.

Andre Jute
The long view

*In the end I didn't, for two reasons: One was aesthetic, that the Phoenix was welded, and I would hurt any time I caught glimpse of a weld. The other was the 20in wheels: I ride in small lanes, blacktopped, true, but full of treacherous potholes, which really require a 622mm rim -- and I'd go up to a bigger rim, if I could get tyres to match the Schwalbe Big Apples my bike was designed for.


Occasionally it passes through my head to build a streamliner and take it to the Salt Flats. That is the only way that I'd ever ride a recumbent.


Uh-huh. That Giant semi-recliner I rode for a couple of weeks reminded me altogether too much of the worst thing about the Porsche cars I used to drive in my careless youth: the way you looked *up* at the wheel hubs of city buses, and wondered if the driver knew you were there.

Andre Jute
Spatially aware
  #23  
Old July 20th 19, 01:48 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Steve Weeks
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Posts: 97
Default Electronic Shifting Replay

On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 12:07:00 PM UTC-5, Andre Jute wrote:
That's a super Neddy article. Neddy is an all-purpose technical innocent who requires explicit step by step instructions... I love articles like that because they save me the bother -- and the expense when I get it wrong -- of working the steps out myself.


I was that "Neddy"... it was a real discovery process for me. My "real" job is teaching dental students to perform root canal treatment, and such documentation and teaching skills as I have transferred to bike mechanics reasonably well. :-)
Steve
  #24  
Old July 20th 19, 03:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default Electronic Shifting Replay

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 17:48:34 -0700 (PDT), Steve Weeks
wrote:

On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 12:07:00 PM UTC-5, Andre Jute wrote:
That's a super Neddy article. Neddy is an all-purpose technical innocent who requires explicit step by step instructions... I love articles like that because they save me the bother -- and the expense when I get it wrong -- of working the steps out myself.


I was that "Neddy"... it was a real discovery process for me. My "real" job is teaching dental students to perform root canal treatment, and such documentation and teaching skills as I have transferred to bike mechanics reasonably well. :-)
Steve



Hey! Just the guy I need :-)
My wife just finished a visit to the dentist where, listening to her
explanation, the dentist apparently reamed the root out of the tooth
and installed some sort of temporary filling and told her to come back
in 3 months for the permanent fix.
Please note that my wife is a Thai and while she speaks English well
she has little "technical language" so her explanation may be faulty,
but when I still had teeth I had two root canals done and in both
cases it was all done in one sitting... as I remember.

Why a 3 months wait?
--
cheers,

John B.

  #25  
Old July 20th 19, 06:39 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 824
Default Electronic Shifting Replay

On Saturday, July 20, 2019 at 4:04:50 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 17:48:34 -0700 (PDT), Steve Weeks
wrote:

On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 12:07:00 PM UTC-5, Andre Jute wrote:
That's a super Neddy article. Neddy is an all-purpose technical innocent who requires explicit step by step instructions... I love articles like that because they save me the bother -- and the expense when I get it wrong -- of working the steps out myself.


I was that "Neddy"... it was a real discovery process for me. My "real" job is teaching dental students to perform root canal treatment, and such documentation and teaching skills as I have transferred to bike mechanics reasonably well. :-)
Steve



Hey! Just the guy I need :-)
My wife just finished a visit to the dentist where, listening to her
explanation, the dentist apparently reamed the root out of the tooth
and installed some sort of temporary filling and told her to come back
in 3 months for the permanent fix.
Please note that my wife is a Thai and while she speaks English well
she has little "technical language" so her explanation may be faulty,
but when I still had teeth I had two root canals done and in both
cases it was all done in one sitting... as I remember.

Why a 3 months wait?
--
cheers,

John B.


3 months is maybe a long time but in my case they wait a certain time before the final fix to see if all the infection is removed.

Lou
  #26  
Old July 20th 19, 07:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default Electronic Shifting Replay

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 22:39:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Saturday, July 20, 2019 at 4:04:50 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 17:48:34 -0700 (PDT), Steve Weeks
wrote:

On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 12:07:00 PM UTC-5, Andre Jute wrote:
That's a super Neddy article. Neddy is an all-purpose technical innocent who requires explicit step by step instructions... I love articles like that because they save me the bother -- and the expense when I get it wrong -- of working the steps out myself.

I was that "Neddy"... it was a real discovery process for me. My "real" job is teaching dental students to perform root canal treatment, and such documentation and teaching skills as I have transferred to bike mechanics reasonably well. :-)
Steve



Hey! Just the guy I need :-)
My wife just finished a visit to the dentist where, listening to her
explanation, the dentist apparently reamed the root out of the tooth
and installed some sort of temporary filling and told her to come back
in 3 months for the permanent fix.
Please note that my wife is a Thai and while she speaks English well
she has little "technical language" so her explanation may be faulty,
but when I still had teeth I had two root canals done and in both
cases it was all done in one sitting... as I remember.

Why a 3 months wait?
--
cheers,

John B.


3 months is maybe a long time but in my case they wait a certain time before the final fix to see if all the infection is removed.

Lou


Understand and perhaps the 3 months may have something to do with many
other previous appointments as well as "waiting a certain time". The
guy is busy.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #27  
Old July 20th 19, 07:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Theodore Heise[_2_]
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Posts: 132
Default Electronic Shifting Replay

On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 09:04:45 +0700,
John B wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 17:48:34 -0700 (PDT), Steve Weeks
wrote:
On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 12:07:00 PM UTC-5, Andre Jute
wrote:
That's a super Neddy article. Neddy is an all-purpose
technical innocent who requires explicit step by step
instructions... I love articles like that because they save
me the bother -- and the expense when I get it wrong -- of
working the steps out myself.


I was that "Neddy"... it was a real discovery process for me.
My "real" job is teaching dental students to perform root canal
treatment, and such documentation and teaching skills as I have
transferred to bike mechanics reasonably well. :-) Steve


Hey! Just the guy I need :-) My wife just finished a visit to
the dentist where, listening to her explanation, the dentist
apparently reamed the root out of the tooth and installed some
sort of temporary filling and told her to come back in 3 months
for the permanent fix. Please note that my wife is a Thai and
while she speaks English well she has little "technical
language" so her explanation may be faulty, but when I still
had teeth I had two root canals done and in both cases it was
all done in one sitting... as I remember.

Why a 3 months wait?


Well, you might ask about the "reamed out the root" part. Is it
possible he actually extracted the tooth (including the root)?
If an implant is planned, there is typically a several month wait
after an extraction for the bone to heal and fill in before the
post is installed. That would be followed by a crown that is
mounted on the post (after it is healed in too).

If it really was a root canal, maybe the other responder who
suggested need for an infection to resolve has it right--though I
don't recall ever needing to have the canals filled twice in the
several root canals I've had.

--
Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA
  #28  
Old July 20th 19, 07:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Steve Weeks
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Posts: 97
Default Electronic Shifting Replay

On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 9:04:50 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:

Hey! Just the guy I need :-)

Why a 3 months wait?


Hard to say. If there were radiographic changes around the end of the root(s), the dentist might be waiting for them to resolve before buttoning everything up. I don't usually do this because the temporarily restored tooth is vulnerable to harm (fracture, loss of temporary seal, etc.). I'll generally complete most root canals in a single sitting unless they are symptomatic or heavily infected. Otherwise, usually no more than 2 visits a week or two apart.
Check out the new technology my department just acquired: https://sonendo.com/
I'm still learning how to use it, but it seems promising. Beaucoup bucks to buy, though!
Sorry... didn't mean to hijack the thread!

  #29  
Old July 20th 19, 07:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Electronic Shifting Replay

On 7/20/2019 1:43 PM, Steve Weeks wrote:
On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 9:04:50 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:

Hey! Just the guy I need :-)

Why a 3 months wait?


Hard to say. If there were radiographic changes around the end of the root(s), the dentist might be waiting for them to resolve before buttoning everything up. I don't usually do this because the temporarily restored tooth is vulnerable to harm (fracture, loss of temporary seal, etc.). I'll generally complete most root canals in a single sitting unless they are symptomatic or heavily infected. Otherwise, usually no more than 2 visits a week or two apart.
Check out the new technology my department just acquired: https://sonendo.com/
I'm still learning how to use it, but it seems promising. Beaucoup bucks to buy, though!
Sorry... didn't mean to hijack the thread!



Don't apologize- a root canal is more interesting and less
painful than many topics on RBT.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #30  
Old July 20th 19, 07:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Theodore Heise[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 132
Default Electronic Shifting Replay

On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 13:49:22 -0500,
AMuzi wrote:
On 7/20/2019 1:43 PM, Steve Weeks wrote:
On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 9:04:50 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:

Hey! Just the guy I need :-)

Why a 3 months wait?


Hard to say. If there were radiographic changes around the end
of the root(s), the dentist might be waiting for them to
resolve before buttoning everything up. I don't usually do
this because the temporarily restored tooth is vulnerable to
harm (fracture, loss of temporary seal, etc.). I'll generally
complete most root canals in a single sitting unless they are
symptomatic or heavily infected. Otherwise, usually no more
than 2 visits a week or two apart. Check out the new
technology my department just acquired: https://sonendo.com/
I'm still learning how to use it, but it seems promising.
Beaucoup bucks to buy, though! Sorry... didn't mean to hijack
the thread!


Don't apologize- a root canal is more interesting and less
painful than many topics on RBT.


Hah! Too true.

Plus, there are a lot of old farts on here who are (or soon will
be) in need of such treatment. To my money, my root canals have
nearly all been much less painful than crown preps.


--
Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA
 




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