Why heckling Page is Fair Game

Tom Kunich wrote:

I was in several
semi-successful bands as well and what it taught me was that it wasn't art
at all.

This is very prophetic in some ways and it's 70% true (and 100% true for many
modern entertainers).

But the best bands, the best actors, the best directors...are quite talented
and true artists.

Magilla

In article ,
MagillaGorilla wrote:

Michael Press wrote:

In article ,
MagillaGorilla wrote:

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:

Notice how you don't see the wives of baseball players trying to suppress all
the hecklers at every game. This is not uncharted waters.

Did y'all see this one?
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/6012599/

“It’s an American tradition,” the 42-year-old fire battalion chief said of his
heckling,....

Francisco was arrested and on June 30, 2005,
he pleaded no contest to the charges. He was
sentenced to anger management classes and a
work program. A civil suit brought by the woman
hit with the chair was settled on January 12, 2007.
Terms of the settlement included an undisclosed payment
and a public apology. Francisco was suspended for the
balance of the 2004 season.

--
Michael Press

In article ,
Scott wrote:

On Jan 2, 2:43*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:

Apparently you think of yourself as an artist without peer. I was in several
semi-successful bands as well and what it taught me was that it wasn't art
at all.

Geezuz H... over the years we've seen you make claims, outlandish
claims, of all manner of experiences and qualifications. Now you'll
have us believe that you were in several bands, too? Is there
anything you haven't done/seen? Man, where do you find the time to do
all the things you claim to have done? No, better still, where do you
find the time to think up the thinks you claim to have done? You must
be, what... 100 years old or something, to have done all you've
claimed.

I'd love to know what his idea of "semi-successful" is, in band terms. Can you
imagine him in a band? That's something that requires a little cooperation, which
isn't exactly his strong suit. I guess I'd also like to know what bands these were.
I'll bet he "can't remember" the names, just like when he claimed to have worked on a
motorcycle that set a lap record (after breaking a primary drive in turn four and
coasting across the line) that "stood for about a dozen years" at the most
competitive 1/2 mile flat track in the country and Tom "couldn't remember" the name
of the rider.

--
tanx,
Howard

Caught playing safe
It's a bored game

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Howard Kveck wrote:
Can you imagine him in a band?

The Headbangers.

On Dec 31 2008, 3:36*am, "
wrote:
On Dec 30, 8:00*am, Bill C wrote:







Sorry Ben you're wrong on what could happen at a race.
*McA was, and is a licensed racer, at a USAC event, an official
could've done anything up to having him removed and suspended. It's
not routine, but happens commonly that riders are warned for their
language where spectators, or press can hear it, and can be, and have
been fined for it. If he didn't stop that gets into disregarding an
Officials order and that's another can of worms. We go through this
with helmets all the time. If you hold a license, and are at an event,
you MUST wear a helmet at all times, not just when you are racing,
same goes for the rest of the code of conduct. Generally an official
is not going to go looking for this stuff, but during a post race
interview, which is clearly part of the event, they would become
involved.
*That goes along with having signed the contract for your license,
same as the doping stuff. Mc A was both liable for action both under
the USAC rulebook, and under the civil police. As were the Pages.
Gonna be interesting to see how this all shakes out.
*There's the "penalize the person who caused the issue" theory, and
then there's the "What's more serious" theory, but either way USAC
should, based on past performance, issue some suspensions here at a
minimum. The only thing that might save them was that none of this was
apparently witnessed by an official.
*Bill C
*Bill C

Yes but your role in the blue-blazer mafia
is to protect the sport, not the "product" as in
the promoter's publicity interests. *I know that
is a fine distinction, but it is there. *You can
sanction a licensed rider for peeing on
somebody's lawn (which is a far greater harm
to the sport than heckling interviews). *USAC
suspended Mercer after he clubbed Myerson,
and nobody had a problem with that.

But USAC's rules don't trump free expression
by spectators. *Spectators should behave
themselves because we live in a civilized
society and all that. *However, the sidewalk
at a race is still a more open forum than, for
example, the stands at a football game.
That is all that I was saying.

Ben- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My disagreement is that he wasn't a "civilian" spectator. He is a
licensed racer at a sanctioned event. I'm inclined to agree with you
on all of it, and as a working official, probably, since he wasn't in
kit and wearing a number, would've strongly suggested he allow the
interview to happen, as it IS part of the planned race day, and left
it at that unless he got belligerent. If he'd been in kit I would've
gone straight to reminding him of what could happen, and what was
required as an obvious racer.
Like you said small distinctions. My preference is almost always to
take as little action as needed, with as little of my impact on the
event as possible to keep it moving and fair to everyone.
Different Officials have different takes. I can think of a couple who
would've immediately gotten a cop and had MC A escorted off site, or
arrested on disturbing the peace, and drunk and disorderly, not even a
question they would've thought about it in my mind.
Bill C

Bill C wrote:

On Dec 31 2008, 3:36*am, "
wrote:
On Dec 30, 8:00*am, Bill C wrote:


Sorry Ben you're wrong on what could happen at a race.
*McA was, and is a licensed racer, at a USAC event, an official
could've done anything up to having him removed and suspended. It's
not routine, but happens commonly that riders are warned for their
language where spectators, or press can hear it, and can be, and have
been fined for it. If he didn't stop that gets into disregarding an
Officials order and that's another can of worms. We go through this
with helmets all the time. If you hold a license, and are at an event,
you MUST wear a helmet at all times, not just when you are racing,
same goes for the rest of the code of conduct. Generally an official
is not going to go looking for this stuff, but during a post race
interview, which is clearly part of the event, they would become
involved.
*That goes along with having signed the contract for your license,
same as the doping stuff. Mc A was both liable for action both under
the USAC rulebook, and under the civil police. As were the Pages.
Gonna be interesting to see how this all shakes out.
*There's the "penalize the person who caused the issue" theory, and
then there's the "What's more serious" theory, but either way USAC
should, based on past performance, issue some suspensions here at a
minimum. The only thing that might save them was that none of this was
apparently witnessed by an official.
*Bill C
*Bill C

Yes but your role in the blue-blazer mafia
is to protect the sport, not the "product" as in
the promoter's publicity interests. *I know that
is a fine distinction, but it is there. *You can
sanction a licensed rider for peeing on
somebody's lawn (which is a far greater harm
to the sport than heckling interviews). *USAC
suspended Mercer after he clubbed Myerson,
and nobody had a problem with that.

But USAC's rules don't trump free expression
by spectators. *Spectators should behave
themselves because we live in a civilized
society and all that. *However, the sidewalk
at a race is still a more open forum than, for
example, the stands at a football game.
That is all that I was saying.

Ben- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My disagreement is that he wasn't a "civilian" spectator. He is a
licensed racer at a sanctioned event. I'm inclined to agree with you
on all of it, and as a working official, probably, since he wasn't in
kit and wearing a number, would've strongly suggested he allow the
interview to happen, as it IS part of the planned race day, and left
it at that unless he got belligerent. If he'd been in kit I would've
gone straight to reminding him of what could happen, and what was
required as an obvious racer.
Like you said small distinctions. My preference is almost always to
take as little action as needed, with as little of my impact on the
event as possible to keep it moving and fair to everyone.
Different Officials have different takes. I can think of a couple who
would've immediately gotten a cop and had MC A escorted off site, or
arrested on disturbing the peace, and drunk and disorderly, not even a
question they would've thought about it in my mind.
Bill C

Heckling is not considered disorderly or disturbing the peace. Please
re-read the dozens of posts where I link to fans who jeer and heckle the
opposing team. Fans are ALLOWED to heckle and jeer an athlete. There are no
signs at professional sporting events that warn you must "cheer politely" or
you will be ejected and arrested.

Second, unless the cop witnessed the person being disorderly, he wouldn't
arrest him for anything. But again, heckling is not acting disorderly given
the venue of a sporting event where everybody was yelling. The official would
have to sign a complaint and then come back to Missouri or it would be
dismissed. Cops don't press charges against other people unless they witness
the alleged crime themselves or can testify to the occurrence of a crime.

I don't see how officials have any authority to tell people how to cheer at
an event.

If there's anyone who should have been arrested, it should have been Wade
Book for laying his hands on Cale first.

Magilla

On Jan 3, 9:33*am, MagillaGorilla wrote:
Bill C wrote:
On Dec 31 2008, 3:36*am, "
wrote:
On Dec 30, 8:00*am, Bill C wrote:

Sorry Ben you're wrong on what could happen at a race.
*McA was, and is a licensed racer, at a USAC event, an official
could've done anything up to having him removed and suspended. It's
not routine, but happens commonly that riders are warned for their
language where spectators, or press can hear it, and can be, and have
been fined for it. If he didn't stop that gets into disregarding an
Officials order and that's another can of worms. We go through this
with helmets all the time. If you hold a license, and are at an event,
you MUST wear a helmet at all times, not just when you are racing,
same goes for the rest of the code of conduct. Generally an official
is not going to go looking for this stuff, but during a post race
interview, which is clearly part of the event, they would become
involved.
*That goes along with having signed the contract for your license,
same as the doping stuff. Mc A was both liable for action both under
the USAC rulebook, and under the civil police. As were the Pages.
Gonna be interesting to see how this all shakes out.
*There's the "penalize the person who caused the issue" theory, and
then there's the "What's more serious" theory, but either way USAC
should, based on past performance, issue some suspensions here at a
minimum. The only thing that might save them was that none of this was
apparently witnessed by an official.
*Bill C
*Bill C

Yes but your role in the blue-blazer mafia
is to protect the sport, not the "product" as in
the promoter's publicity interests. *I know that
is a fine distinction, but it is there. *You can
sanction a licensed rider for peeing on
somebody's lawn (which is a far greater harm
to the sport than heckling interviews). *USAC
suspended Mercer after he clubbed Myerson,
and nobody had a problem with that.

But USAC's rules don't trump free expression
by spectators. *Spectators should behave
themselves because we live in a civilized
society and all that. *However, the sidewalk
at a race is still a more open forum than, for
example, the stands at a football game.
That is all that I was saying.

Ben- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My disagreement is that he wasn't a "civilian" spectator. He is a
licensed racer at a sanctioned event. I'm inclined to agree with you
on all of it, and as a working official, probably, since he wasn't in
kit and wearing a number, would've strongly suggested he allow the
interview to happen, as it IS part of the planned race day, and left
it at that unless he got belligerent. If he'd been in kit I would've
gone straight to reminding him of what could happen, and what was
required as an obvious racer.
*Like you said small distinctions. My preference is almost always to
take as little action as needed, with as little of my impact on the
event as possible to keep it moving and fair to everyone.
*Different Officials have different takes. I can think of a couple who
would've immediately gotten a cop and had MC A escorted off site, or
arrested on disturbing the peace, and drunk and disorderly, not even a
question they would've thought about it in my mind.
*Bill C

Heckling is not considered disorderly or disturbing the peace. *Please
re-read the dozens of posts where I link to fans who jeer and heckle the
opposing team. *Fans are ALLOWED to heckle and jeer an athlete. *There are no
signs at professional sporting events that warn you must "cheer politely" or
you will be ejected and arrested.

Second, unless the cop witnessed the person being disorderly, he wouldn't
arrest him for anything. *But again, heckling is not acting disorderly given
the venue of a sporting event where everybody was yelling. The official would
have to sign a complaint and then come back to Missouri or it would be
dismissed. *Cops don't press charges against other people unless they witness
the alleged crime themselves or can testify to the occurrence of a crime.

I don't see how officials have any authority to tell people how to cheer at
an event.

If there's anyone who should have been arrested, it should have been Wade
Book for laying his hands on Cale first.

Magilla- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

All should've been arrested afterwards. The Page faction charged with
assault, and Mc A charged with Drunk and Disorderly.

Monkey Boy you keep making **** up!


http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=090...o&confirm=true

Fan code of conduct

"The National Football League and its teams are committed to creating
a safe, comfortable, and enjoyable experience for all fans, both in
the stadium and in the parking lot. We want all fans attending our
games to enjoy the experience in a responsible fashion. When attending
a game, you are required to refrain from the following behaviors:

» Behavior that is unruly, disruptive, or illegal in nature.

» Intoxication or other signs of alcohol impairment that results in
irresponsible behavior.

» Foul or abusive language or obscene gestures.

» Interference with the progress of the game (including throwing
objects onto the field).

» Failing to follow instructions of stadium personnel.

» Verbal or physical harassment of opposing team fans.

"Event patrons are responsible for their conduct as well as the
conduct of their guests and/or persons occupying their seats. Stadium
staff will promptly intervene to support an environment where event
patrons, their guests, and other fans can enjoy the event free from
the above behavior. Event patrons and guests who violate these
provisions will be subject to ejection without refund and loss of
ticket privileges for future games."


Bill C

Bill C wrote:

On Jan 3, 9:33Ýam, MagillaGorilla wrote:
Bill C wrote:
On Dec 31 2008, 3:36Ýam, "
wrote:
On Dec 30, 8:00Ýam, Bill C wrote:

Sorry Ben you're wrong on what could happen at a race.
ÝMcA was, and is a licensed racer, at a USAC event, an official
could've done anything up to having him removed and suspended. It's
not routine, but happens commonly that riders are warned for their
language where spectators, or press can hear it, and can be, and have
been fined for it. If he didn't stop that gets into disregarding an
Officials order and that's another can of worms. We go through this
with helmets all the time. If you hold a license, and are at an event,
you MUST wear a helmet at all times, not just when you are racing,
same goes for the rest of the code of conduct. Generally an official
is not going to go looking for this stuff, but during a post race
interview, which is clearly part of the event, they would become
involved.
ÝThat goes along with having signed the contract for your license,
same as the doping stuff. Mc A was both liable for action both under
the USAC rulebook, and under the civil police. As were the Pages.
Gonna be interesting to see how this all shakes out.
ÝThere's the "penalize the person who caused the issue" theory, and
then there's the "What's more serious" theory, but either way USAC
should, based on past performance, issue some suspensions here at a
minimum. The only thing that might save them was that none of this was
apparently witnessed by an official.
ÝBill C
ÝBill C

Yes but your role in the blue-blazer mafia
is to protect the sport, not the "product" as in
the promoter's publicity interests. ÝI know that
is a fine distinction, but it is there. ÝYou can
sanction a licensed rider for peeing on
somebody's lawn (which is a far greater harm
to the sport than heckling interviews). ÝUSAC
suspended Mercer after he clubbed Myerson,
and nobody had a problem with that.

But USAC's rules don't trump free expression
by spectators. ÝSpectators should behave
themselves because we live in a civilized
society and all that. ÝHowever, the sidewalk
at a race is still a more open forum than, for
example, the stands at a football game.
That is all that I was saying.

Ben- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My disagreement is that he wasn't a "civilian" spectator. He is a
licensed racer at a sanctioned event. I'm inclined to agree with you
on all of it, and as a working official, probably, since he wasn't in
kit and wearing a number, would've strongly suggested he allow the
interview to happen, as it IS part of the planned race day, and left
it at that unless he got belligerent. If he'd been in kit I would've
gone straight to reminding him of what could happen, and what was
required as an obvious racer.
ÝLike you said small distinctions. My preference is almost always to
take as little action as needed, with as little of my impact on the
event as possible to keep it moving and fair to everyone.
ÝDifferent Officials have different takes. I can think of a couple who
would've immediately gotten a cop and had MC A escorted off site, or
arrested on disturbing the peace, and drunk and disorderly, not even a
question they would've thought about it in my mind.
ÝBill C

Heckling is not considered disorderly or disturbing the peace. ÝPlease
re-read the dozens of posts where I link to fans who jeer and heckle the
opposing team. ÝFans are ALLOWED to heckle and jeer an athlete. ÝThere are no
signs at professional sporting events that warn you must "cheer politely" or
you will be ejected and arrested.

Second, unless the cop witnessed the person being disorderly, he wouldn't
arrest him for anything. ÝBut again, heckling is not acting disorderly given
the venue of a sporting event where everybody was yelling. The official would
have to sign a complaint and then come back to Missouri or it would be
dismissed. ÝCops don't press charges against other people unless they witness
the alleged crime themselves or can testify to the occurrence of a crime.

I don't see how officials have any authority to tell people how to cheer at
an event.

If there's anyone who should have been arrested, it should have been Wade
Book for laying his hands on Cale first.

Magilla- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

All should've been arrested afterwards. The Page faction charged with
assault, and Mc A charged with Drunk and Disorderly.

Monkey Boy you keep making **** up!

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=090...o&confirm=true

Fan code of conduct

"The National Football League and its teams are committed to creating
a safe, comfortable, and enjoyable experience for all fans, both in
the stadium and in the parking lot. We want all fans attending our
games to enjoy the experience in a responsible fashion. When attending
a game, you are required to refrain from the following behaviors:

» Behavior that is unruly, disruptive, or illegal in nature.

» Intoxication or other signs of alcohol impairment that results in
irresponsible behavior.

» Foul or abusive language or obscene gestures.

» Interference with the progress of the game (including throwing
objects onto the field).

» Failing to follow instructions of stadium personnel.

» Verbal or physical harassment of opposing team fans.

"Event patrons are responsible for their conduct as well as the
conduct of their guests and/or persons occupying their seats. Stadium
staff will promptly intervene to support an environment where event
patrons, their guests, and other fans can enjoy the event free from
the above behavior. Event patrons and guests who violate these
provisions will be subject to ejection without refund and loss of
ticket privileges for future games."

Bill C

Where in that list does it say you can't boo or heckle a player? I do notice there are
very specific rules targeted at fans to not interact with other fans though.

And how do you know Cale was "drunk?" Did you do a breathalyzer test on him? Tell us
what the results were.

Also, your entire reference to football is ludicrous because the NFL and the teams own
the stadium. A stadium is considered private property. A public park is NOT considered
private property.

So again, you make very bizarre analogies.

Magilla

On Jan 3, 10:09*am, MagillaGorilla wrote:
Bill C wrote:
On Jan 3, 9:33Ýam, MagillaGorilla wrote:
Bill C wrote:
On Dec 31 2008, 3:36Ýam, "
wrote:
On Dec 30, 8:00Ýam, Bill C wrote:

Sorry Ben you're wrong on what could happen at a race.
ÝMcA was, and is a licensed racer, at a USAC event, an official
could've done anything up to having him removed and suspended. It's
not routine, but happens commonly that riders are warned for their
language where spectators, or press can hear it, and can be, and have
been fined for it. If he didn't stop that gets into disregarding an
Officials order and that's another can of worms. We go through this
with helmets all the time. If you hold a license, and are at an event,
you MUST wear a helmet at all times, not just when you are racing,
same goes for the rest of the code of conduct. Generally an official
is not going to go looking for this stuff, but during a post race
interview, which is clearly part of the event, they would become
involved.
ÝThat goes along with having signed the contract for your license,
same as the doping stuff. Mc A was both liable for action both under
the USAC rulebook, and under the civil police. As were the Pages.
Gonna be interesting to see how this all shakes out.
ÝThere's the "penalize the person who caused the issue" theory, and
then there's the "What's more serious" theory, but either way USAC
should, based on past performance, issue some suspensions here at a
minimum. The only thing that might save them was that none of this was
apparently witnessed by an official.
ÝBill C
ÝBill C

Yes but your role in the blue-blazer mafia
is to protect the sport, not the "product" as in
the promoter's publicity interests. ÝI know that
is a fine distinction, but it is there. ÝYou can
sanction a licensed rider for peeing on
somebody's lawn (which is a far greater harm
to the sport than heckling interviews). ÝUSAC
suspended Mercer after he clubbed Myerson,
and nobody had a problem with that.

But USAC's rules don't trump free expression
by spectators. ÝSpectators should behave
themselves because we live in a civilized
society and all that. ÝHowever, the sidewalk
at a race is still a more open forum than, for
example, the stands at a football game.
That is all that I was saying.

Ben- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My disagreement is that he wasn't a "civilian" spectator. He is a
licensed racer at a sanctioned event. I'm inclined to agree with you
on all of it, and as a working official, probably, since he wasn't in
kit and wearing a number, would've strongly suggested he allow the
interview to happen, as it IS part of the planned race day, and left
it at that unless he got belligerent. If he'd been in kit I would've
gone straight to reminding him of what could happen, and what was
required as an obvious racer.
ÝLike you said small distinctions. My preference is almost always to
take as little action as needed, with as little of my impact on the
event as possible to keep it moving and fair to everyone.
ÝDifferent Officials have different takes. I can think of a couple who
would've immediately gotten a cop and had MC A escorted off site, or
arrested on disturbing the peace, and drunk and disorderly, not even a
question they would've thought about it in my mind.
ÝBill C

Heckling is not considered disorderly or disturbing the peace. ÝPlease
re-read the dozens of posts where I link to fans who jeer and heckle the
opposing team. ÝFans are ALLOWED to heckle and jeer an athlete. ÝThere are no
signs at professional sporting events that warn you must "cheer politely" or
you will be ejected and arrested.

Second, unless the cop witnessed the person being disorderly, he wouldn't
arrest him for anything. ÝBut again, heckling is not acting disorderly given
the venue of a sporting event where everybody was yelling. The official would
have to sign a complaint and then come back to Missouri or it would be
dismissed. ÝCops don't press charges against other people unless they witness
the alleged crime themselves or can testify to the occurrence of a crime.

I don't see how officials have any authority to tell people how to cheer at
an event.

If there's anyone who should have been arrested, it should have been Wade
Book for laying his hands on Cale first.

Magilla- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

*All should've been arrested afterwards. The Page faction charged with
assault, and Mc A charged with Drunk and Disorderly.

Monkey Boy you keep making **** up!

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=090...ate=without-vi...

Fan code of conduct

"The National Football League and its teams are committed to creating
a safe, comfortable, and enjoyable experience for all fans, both in
the stadium and in the parking lot. We want all fans attending our
games to enjoy the experience in a responsible fashion. When attending
a game, you are required to refrain from the following behaviors:

» Behavior that is unruly, disruptive, or illegal in nature.

» Intoxication or other signs of alcohol impairment that results in
irresponsible behavior.

» Foul or abusive language or obscene gestures.

» Interference with the progress of the game (including throwing
objects onto the field).

» Failing to follow instructions of stadium personnel.

» Verbal or physical harassment of opposing team fans.

"Event patrons are responsible for their conduct as well as the
conduct of their guests and/or persons occupying their seats. Stadium
staff will promptly intervene to support an environment where event
patrons, their guests, and other fans can enjoy the event free from
the above behavior. Event patrons and guests who violate these
provisions will be subject to ejection without refund and loss of
ticket privileges for future games."

Bill C

Where in that list does it say you can't boo or heckle a player? *I do notice there are
very specific rules targeted at fans to not interact with other fans though.

And how do you know Cale was "drunk?" *Did you do a breathalyzer test on him? *Tell us
what the results were.

Also, your entire reference to football is ludicrous because the NFL and the teams own
the stadium. *A stadium is considered private property. *A public park is NOT considered
private property.

So again, you make very bizarre analogies.

Magilla- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Do you know he wasn't drunk? Anecdotal evidence, witness reports,
etc... say he was. You're also avoiding that he was a licensee in
clear violation of USCF rules, but those only seem to apply to people
you don't like.
You're still a complete hypocrite.
Bill C

In article ,
MagillaGorilla wrote:

Tom Kunich wrote:

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in message
...
On Jan 2, 7:16 am, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:

Psst - that proves my point. They AREN'T learning any more, they're
showing
the ability to understand what the teachers are emphasizing.

Over the years I worked with a lot of geniuses. But what has become more
and
more apparent is that these people are now being shunted out of the
system
since they are hard to control. Instead management believes that
education
is all that is necessary to fulfill such positions. And that's why we're
becoming little more than second rate Europeans.

The majority of this country, people like you, are becoming
Europeanized. Uncompetitive, closed-minded, sense of entitlement and
all that.

There is a subset of our population that doesn't fit into that
description. Intelligent, creative, open-minded, innovative, world
class. It's why we lead the world in the cutting edge of technology,
but lag behind in non-cutting edge manufacturing.

It took some reading and re-reading to try to make out what you mean.
Apparently you think of yourself as an artist without peer. I was in several
semi-successful bands as well and what it taught me was that it wasn't art
at all.

Manufacturing in the USA is without peer from anywhere in the world.
However, unlike idiots like you who haven't the slightest idea what real
work is, such manufacturing jobs have left the USA because the great US
company administrators decided that they could get labor much cheaper in
poorer countries. And since I had to manage several projects that had
products built in such places as Taiwan and mainland China, I know that in
reality the difference in manufacturing costs is a great deal less than
administrators believe. Of course since they don't count vastly increased
additional quality control and 30% losses for incoming inspection from such
sources.

But by all means tell us all about your vast understanding of the
manufacturing problems in the USA.

You might be right for some high-tech things. But then explain to me why
foreign car companies have consistently manufactured higher quality cars
outside the U.S. than the American car companies. If one uses cars as a litmus
test of quality, then I don't see American manufacturing being superior to
foreign.

Also, I find it difficult to believe that the bean counters don't take into
consideration losses from quality control in their cost-benefit analyses.

I can answer that last implied question. The bean counters say
what their bosses tell them to say.

--
Michael Press