Winter Drag

Zzzzzzzzzzzaaaaaaaaaaaaapppppppppppp you’re out !

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&output...w=1152&bih=666


http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/heal...pics/pleurisy/

On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 23:01:43 -0500, Joy Beeson
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 23:24:15 -0600, wrote:

That was 34C/93F versus 10C/50F, with more power again at the colder
temperature.

That's still way, way above freezing.

Dear Joy,

Your previous post stopped at 55F.

Why not do some work on your own?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 23:24:15 -0600, wrote:

That was 34C/93F versus 10C/50F, with more power again at the colder
temperature.

That's still way, way above freezing.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net

On Mar 15, 8:38 pm, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 23:01:43 -0500, Joy Beeson

wrote:
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 23:24:15 -0600, wrote:

That was 34C/93F versus 10C/50F, with more power again at the colder
temperature.

That's still way, way above freezing.



Your previous post stopped at 55F.


Boy, I didn't even look at the temps in the chart or whatever; I was
just thinking hot (which I seem to tolerate - as far as that goes -
better than cold), cold (which I don't like to feel), and everything
in between.

The OP mentioned a "commute", so I didn't figure he was pushing his
body at redline like a machine, where performance "data" comes into
play. My own observation from commuting is that cold wind chill
associated with speed creates a counter-incentive to speed. (Thank
goodness for the climbs in winter; suffer through the descents.)

Why not do some work on your own?


Because she's not a coach / trainer (?)

John B. wrote:
It's not a breathing difficulty but that you have to use the oxygen
intake to produce heat rather than to power muscles, owing to the cooling
of the body core from the very air you're using.

At least that's what's making sense to me.

But, on the other hand exercise results in an increase in core
temperature. If surface radiation is insufficient to cool adequately
then energy is required to cool the body - sweat, heart rate increase,
and breathlessness.

I suspect that the degree of heat or cold relative to the exertion is
the determining factor, rather then a simple "faster then when cold,
or hot" rule.

The resulting increase in core temperature from exercise is the very
expenditure of oxygen that I'm talking about.

Just comparing to the blast of hot air from a working laptop, I'd guess
that it's probably a hundred watts or so of waste oxygen when you heat up
lungfulls of 32 degree air and blow it out, which is a hundred watts you don't
have available to power the bike.
--


On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 07:51:09 -0500, Ron Hardin
wrote:

John B. wrote:
It's not a breathing difficulty but that you have to use the oxygen
intake to produce heat rather than to power muscles, owing to the cooling
of the body core from the very air you're using.

At least that's what's making sense to me.

But, on the other hand exercise results in an increase in core
temperature. If surface radiation is insufficient to cool adequately
then energy is required to cool the body - sweat, heart rate increase,
and breathlessness.

I suspect that the degree of heat or cold relative to the exertion is
the determining factor, rather then a simple "faster then when cold,
or hot" rule.

The resulting increase in core temperature from exercise is the very
expenditure of oxygen that I'm talking about.

But exercise requires X amount of watts to do Y amount of work. If I'm
not mistaken that work results in Z amount of heat being generated. It
is this heat minus whatever heat is radiated that we measure as an
increase in core temperature.

Just comparing to the blast of hot air from a working laptop, I'd guess
that it's probably a hundred watts or so of waste oxygen when you heat up
lungfulls of 32 degree air and blow it out, which is a hundred watts you don't
have available to power the bike.

But there is no indication that the human body has any specific
heating ability for air inhaled. We perspire as an aid to surface
radiation when it gets hot. In extremes we even pant to allow the
lungs to handle more air as some heat is radiated from the lungs to
the exhausted air. We have a mechanism to shiver to cause the muscles
to increase their workload and generate more heat. Thus exhaust air is
likely ambient temperature less whatever heat is absorbed from the
breathing system.

To use your analogy, while the circulated air does absorb and carry
off heat generated by the computer there is no specific air heating
device in the computer, every thing is a simple heat radiating device.
No additional power is needed to operate the computer in a sub zero
temperature.


--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. wrote:
The resulting increase in core temperature from exercise is the very
expenditure of oxygen that I'm talking about.

But exercise requires X amount of watts to do Y amount of work. If I'm
not mistaken that work results in Z amount of heat being generated. It
is this heat minus whatever heat is radiated that we measure as an
increase in core temperature.

Just comparing to the blast of hot air from a working laptop, I'd guess
that it's probably a hundred watts or so of waste oxygen when you heat up
lungfulls of 32 degree air and blow it out, which is a hundred watts you don't
have available to power the bike.

But there is no indication that the human body has any specific
heating ability for air inhaled. We perspire as an aid to surface
radiation when it gets hot. In extremes we even pant to allow the
lungs to handle more air as some heat is radiated from the lungs to
the exhausted air. We have a mechanism to shiver to cause the muscles
to increase their workload and generate more heat. Thus exhaust air is
likely ambient temperature less whatever heat is absorbed from the
breathing system.

To use your analogy, while the circulated air does absorb and carry
off heat generated by the computer there is no specific air heating
device in the computer, every thing is a simple heat radiating device.
No additional power is needed to operate the computer in a sub zero
temperature.

The situation, though, is that the body puts priority on maintaining core
temperature above some level, and heavy breathing of cold air lowers the
core temperature. It has to be made up by burning oxygen, independently
of any muscle activity.

You can estimate how many pxygen watts this eats up by comparing similar amounts
of heated air from a laptop - anyway I can - that probably goes through the same
temperature increase. A laptop under heavy cpu load is about 30w, and I'd
guess blows out about a third the volume of air as you breathing while biking,
so about 100w of oxygen burning going to no useful purpose. Where does that
100w come from if not burning oxygen.

You get behind the curve: the more air you breathe, the more heating you need,
which is what shuts you down in winter, and you go with the granny gearing instead.

Minimal work and minimal breathing works fine in winter, and you don't get cold.
But you're not sprinting up the hills until spring.
--


On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

On Mar 18, 6:45 am, Ron Hardin wrote:
John B. wrote:
The resulting increase in core temperature from exercise is the very
expenditure of oxygen that I'm talking about.

But exercise requires X amount of watts to do Y amount of work. If I'm
not mistaken that work results in Z amount of heat being generated. It
is this heat minus whatever heat is radiated that we measure as an
increase in core temperature.

Just comparing to the blast of hot air from a working laptop, I'd guess
that it's probably a hundred watts or so of waste oxygen when you heat up
lungfulls of 32 degree air and blow it out, which is a hundred watts you don't
have available to power the bike.

But there is no indication that the human body has any specific
heating ability for air inhaled. We perspire as an aid to surface
radiation when it gets hot. In extremes we even pant to allow the
lungs to handle more air as some heat is radiated from the lungs to
the exhausted air. We have a mechanism to shiver to cause the muscles
to increase their workload and generate more heat. Thus exhaust air is
likely ambient temperature less whatever heat is absorbed from the
breathing system.


I am fascinated by my body's thermal regulation.

To use your analogy, while the circulated air does absorb and carry
off heat generated by the computer there is no specific air heating
device in the computer, every thing is a simple heat radiating device.
No additional power is needed to operate the computer in a sub zero
temperature.


Computer?

The situation, though, is that the body puts priority on maintaining core
temperature above some level, and heavy breathing of cold air lowers the
core temperature. It has to be made up by burning oxygen, independently
of any muscle activity.

You can estimate how many pxygen watts this eats up by comparing similar amounts
of heated air from a laptop - anyway I can - that probably goes through the same
temperature increase. A laptop under heavy cpu load is about 30w, and I'd
guess blows out about a third the volume of air as you breathing while biking,
so about 100w of oxygen burning going to no useful purpose. Where does that
100w come from if not burning oxygen.


Laptop computer?

I could be wrong, but I don't think oxygen utilization is what
generates most of the heat in the body. In fact, judging from all the
steam coming off my breath, I'd guess oxygen utiilization is a lot
about cooling.

You get behind the curve: the more air you breathe, the more heating you need,
which is what shuts you down in winter, and you go with the granny gearing instead.


I run the very same gears year-round, but then, ISTR you were
originally talking about -40 C or some such insane conditions which I
never, ever encounter.

Minimal work and minimal breathing works fine in winter, and you don't get cold.
But you're not sprinting up the hills until spring.

Minimal breathing?

As suggested in my earlier replies, I don't sprint up the hills in
winter, because... well, for one thing I only sprint when I have some
reason to, and two, I savor the time spent working up core temp while,
simultaneously, forward motion wind chill is reduced, and three, I
really don't want to get all sweaty before descending the other side
in sub-freezing air.

Again, though, I am probably completely out of the realm of harsh
conditions that you're discussing.

an excellent project, rejuvenation from hibernation: nutrition, light therapy, stretching see EXRX and various books...

easy going hot to cold, always clothing. Wear poly ? Duofold-Champion has a sale.

cold to hot more difficult. I did this curing a lung infection, bungled diagnosis.

miles beach running from Florida winter into Florida summer after 25 below Mtns to 130 surface temp working outside on asphalt goes in comfort with no body fat, new high volume blood skin cooling forced in with beach into summer running.

when at Palm Beach, I was surprised the girls were alllllll white skinned even the Cubans...A/C was he answer. Door to door dash to A/C TO envelope A/C.

On Mar 18, 7:29 pm, datakoll wrote:
an excellent project, rejuvenation from hibernation: nutrition, light therapy, stretching see EXRX and various books...

easy going hot to cold, always clothing. Wear poly ? Duofold-Champion has a sale.


Yes, I love my Duofold T's as base layer. (~$5 from Nashbar blowout!)

cold to hot more difficult.

Gloves are my bugaboo. I have several pair in differing weights, and
carry three or four trying to cover the conditions.

I did this curing a lung infection, bungled diagnosis.


Ratso, is that you? ;-)

miles beach running from Florida winter into Florida summer after 25 below Mtns to 130 surface temp working outside on asphalt goes in comfort with no body fat, new high volume blood skin cooling forced in with beach into summer running.

when at Palm Beach, I was surprised the girls were alllllll white skinned even the Cubans...A/C was he answer. Door to door dash to A/C TO envelope A/C.

I still have the weird tan lines from last summer.

What I really need most right now is rain chaps.