Economics of Custom Frame Building in non Ferrous Materials

I was wondering why there are very few custom frame builders working in Alu,
Ti or carbon.

30 Years ago almost everyone rode steel frames and many cities would have
several frames builders turning out custom and off the peg frames for racing
and touring cyclists.

There were very few mass produced top quality frames, the process did not
seam to scale well. On the other hand the capital costs to equip a workshop
to produce one or two frames a week were on the scale of a couple of month
wages.

I can see that mass produced Alu and Carbon frames have captured the top end
of the market, but that few custom builders have moved into these materials.

Is this due to inertia and lack of foresight by the builders? Are the large
capital costs involved? Is it mainly due to being unable to compete with
offshore wage levels?

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK


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"AndyMorris" wrote in message
...

Is this due to inertia and lack of foresight by the builders? Are the
large
capital costs involved? Is it mainly due to being unable to compete with
offshore wage levels?

--
Andy Morris


The internet certainly didn't help the local custom framebuilder. Just a few
great full time frame builders can serve a much larger population these
days.






AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK


Love this:
Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/

The internet certainly didn't help the local custom framebuilder. Just a
few
great full time frame builders can serve a much larger population these
days.

You overestimate the number of frames a builder can rasonably make. Richard
Sachs doesn't make more frames now per year than he did 5 years ago-well, maybe
a couple. there's a limit of how many frmes a person can make a year so now the
internet exposes more builders to more potential customers. I used to build in
LA before I moved but I had customers in New Jersey-all through the internet.
It's a great thing.
Phil Brown

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 00:40:02 +0100, "AndyMorris"
may have said:

I was wondering why there are very few custom frame builders working in Alu,
Ti or carbon.

Techniques for brazing or welding steel are much easier to master (and
equip for) than reliably welding aluminum. Titanium is reportedly at
least a full quantum level more difficult than that. (This is from an
aerospace engineer who has to design for the stuff.) Carbon fiber is
an entirely different kind of process. To be competitive or even
competent in those materials is probably beyond the level of expertise
that a lot of the older steel frame builders could have handled; the
current ones may just prefer to stay with what is reliable and known.

It may be that more custom builders would have made the transition to
new materials if there hadn't been as much market pressure from the
mass-produced units, though. It's probably a combination of effects,
with each case being a bit different.

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andy- I was wondering why there are very few custom frame builders working in
Alu,
Ti or carbon. BRBR

Tough to sell a custom, small production ti or carbon and compete with the big
boys. I know a local ti builder but he can't really sell one for less than
$2600 or so, and his lack of name recognition makes it a tough sell when
compared to Moots, Seven, etc.

Carbon is just plain expensive(altho Calfee is available in custom).
As for aluminum, tough to copete with the loads and tons of cheapo aluminum in
the market now, both in quality(altho the price may be high, high) and price.

Like the tailor that makes really fine suits in worsted wool...hard to work
with, but really fine product, like Steel and the frame builder.

Also I think most well established and knowledgable frame builders realize that
steel offers the best COMBINATION of qualities that make for a great frameset.



Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Werehatrack wrote:

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 00:40:02 +0100, "AndyMorris"
may have said:

I was wondering why there are very few custom frame builders working in Alu,
Ti or carbon.

Techniques for brazing or welding steel are much easier to master (and
equip for) than reliably welding aluminum. Titanium is reportedly at
least a full quantum level more difficult than that. (This is from an
aerospace engineer who has to design for the stuff.)

The actual welding of the frame isn't THAT much more difficult, but
setting up the necessary equipment to do it IS. The most important
difference is that you have to be VERY careful to prevent air from
contaminating the weld - just a few molecules of the stuff can affect
a weld. And it IS more difficult to cut and machine (it's hell on
cutting tools).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $995 custom ti frame

In article ,
(Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote:

andy- I was wondering why there are very few custom frame builders working
in
Alu,
Ti or carbon. BRBR

Tough to sell a custom, small production ti or carbon and compete with the
big
boys. I know a local ti builder but he can't really sell one for less than
$2600 or so, and his lack of name recognition makes it a tough sell when
compared to Moots, Seven, etc.

Carbon is just plain expensive(altho Calfee is available in custom).
As for aluminum, tough to copete with the loads and tons of cheapo aluminum
in
the market now, both in quality(altho the price may be high, high) and price.

Like the tailor that makes really fine suits in worsted wool...hard to work
with, but really fine product, like Steel and the frame builder.

Also I think most well established and knowledgable frame builders realize
that
steel offers the best COMBINATION of qualities that make for a great
frameset.

What's that? The extra weight of lugged construction? The lack of
natural corrosion resistance? The general inability to build a frame as
light as other materials? The fabulous tales of repairability?

Steel isn't as terrible a material as I jokingly make out here. Indeed,
the irony is that my mountain bike is welded steel (old Kona Kilauea),
and my road bike is lugged steel (old low-end Pinarello). I bought them
because they were good deals; the used market is fairly thick with cheap
steel bikes because they have mostly fallen out of favour (bikes with
vintage value excepted).

Compared to aluminum, steel used to be cheaper. But that has changed a
lot, to the point that materials costs don't factor into retail frame
prices between them; you can get cheap or expensive frames in either
material, sometimes from the same company.

The other tale oft told is that steel frames are repairable, aluminum
ones are not. Discounting the fact that the cost of repairing a frame
makes this folly on all but the most costly or sentimental frames,
aluminum can now be properly repaired and treated too:

http://pyrobike.com/

Beyond those considerations, you are left with hand-waving arguments
about ride quality, rhyming slogans, magnetism, and the aesthetics of
lugged construction. If you really like lugs, then steel is real, but I
am not so sentimental.

What I like best about my steel Pinarello (besides the price and the
pretty chromed chainstay) is that finishing well in my crit races
(personal-best of 5th place last time, woo hoo) makes the riders behind
me on lighter, newer bikes feel even worse. I have a friggin' Sora
brifteur on the thing for heaven's sake, not to mention a bell!

Nobody likes it when I use the bell in a race,

--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

(Qui si parla Campagnolo) writes:

I was wondering why there are very few custom frame builders working in
Alu, Ti or carbon. BRBR

Tough to sell a custom, small production ti or carbon and compete with the big
boys. I know a local ti builder but he can't really sell one for less than
$2600 or so, and his lack of name recognition makes it a tough sell when
compared to Moots, Seven, etc.

I actually think its easier to distinguish yourself in steel than in
other materials. an aluminum welded frame is an aluminum welded
frame. a steel builder can select dozens of lugs, grind them into new
shapes, use custom bridges, etc., to create a market presence for
himself. its much more expensive and difficult with other materials
.... except for carbon.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Werehatrack wrote:

I was wondering why there are very few custom frame builders working in Alu,
Ti or carbon.

Techniques for brazing or welding steel are much easier to master (and
equip for) than reliably welding aluminum. Titanium is reportedly at
least a full quantum level more difficult than that. (This is from an
aerospace engineer who has to design for the stuff.)

I respectfully disagree with that assertion. Not sure to what that
aerospace engineer was referring, but titanium is not at all difficult
to weld and is similar to steel(that is, using the GTAW process).
Aluminum requires an AC arc which transfers a lot of heat to the
tungsten and the torch, and aluminum gives little visual warning as it
changes from solid to liquid.

The only real complication with Ti is the absolute requirement for an
oxygen-free environment on both sides of the weld, necessitating back
purging with an inert gas. Ti can be more difficult to machine or
otherwise work the pieces into the desired shape and is far more
ixpensive than either steel or AL.

--
Ted Bennett
Portland OR

On 24 Aug 2003 14:17:29 -0700, (Donald Gillies) may
have said:

(Qui si parla Campagnolo) writes:

I was wondering why there are very few custom frame builders working in
Alu, Ti or carbon. BRBR

Tough to sell a custom, small production ti or carbon and compete with the big
boys. I know a local ti builder but he can't really sell one for less than
$2600 or so, and his lack of name recognition makes it a tough sell when
compared to Moots, Seven, etc.

I actually think its easier to distinguish yourself in steel than in
other materials. an aluminum welded frame is an aluminum welded
frame.

Well, sort of. There are still design issues galore. I'm sure that
you wouldn't equate an aluminum Next frame with an aluminum
Specialized, for instance. (And if you would, well, the obvious
tactic is to buy the Next, toss the crappy stuff that's hung on it,
and re-equip it with decent kit.) (And get *really* strange looks for
showing up on a Next with ten times the bike's price of ders, wheels,
seat, stem, forks, etc. Of course, you could always peel the
decals...)

a steel builder can select dozens of lugs, grind them into new
shapes, use custom bridges, etc., to create a market presence for
himself. its much more expensive and difficult with other materials
... except for carbon.

And carbon is just so completely different that some frame builders
may not want to get into it. You would just have to ask them, I
guess.



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