So you think you can do a decent trackstand?

I stumbled across this fellow in the New York Times archives and
tracked him down:

http://www.showhistory.com/Kilpatric...edBicycle.html

Here's a typical newspaper announcement:


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...9C94 679ED7CF

On an unrelated note, note the "brake" bridge with no hole that
connects the seat stays in the circus picture.

As far as I know, the equipment pre-dates rear caliper brakes, and the
seat-stays in the picture are much too wide to trap a tire, the two
usual explanations for such bridges. It may be worth looking into old
pictures to see how early seat-stay and chain-stay bridges appeared.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:05:05 -0700, wrote:

I stumbled across this fellow in the New York Times archives and
tracked him down:

http://www.showhistory.com/Kilpatric...edBicycle.html

Here's a typical newspaper announcement:


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...9C94 679ED7CF

On an unrelated note, note the "brake" bridge with no hole that
connects the seat stays in the circus picture.

As far as I know, the equipment pre-dates rear caliper brakes, and the
seat-stays in the picture are much too wide to trap a tire, the two
usual explanations for such bridges. It may be worth looking into old
pictures to see how early seat-stay and chain-stay bridges appeared.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

"Brake" bridges turn out to be commonplace on pre-caliper safeties:


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic12v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic13v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic15v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic21v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...neumatic2v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...neumatic3v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...neumatic5v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...neumatic9v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic17v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic26v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...ws/sherman.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...s/child10v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...s/child14v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...s/child15v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...ws/child5v.jpg


These pictures make me wonder if the "brake" bridge was originally a
fender bridge:


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic14v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic24v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...neumatic4v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...neumatic8v.jpg

Regrettably, none of the pictures show if there's a corresponding
bridge between the chain-stays, so now I have to look for those.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:23:06 -0700, wrote:

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:05:05 -0700, wrote:

I stumbled across this fellow in the New York Times archives and
tracked him down:

http://www.showhistory.com/Kilpatric...edBicycle.html

Here's a typical newspaper announcement:


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...9C94 679ED7CF

On an unrelated note, note the "brake" bridge with no hole that
connects the seat stays in the circus picture.

As far as I know, the equipment pre-dates rear caliper brakes, and the
seat-stays in the picture are much too wide to trap a tire, the two
usual explanations for such bridges. It may be worth looking into old
pictures to see how early seat-stay and chain-stay bridges appeared.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

"Brake" bridges turn out to be commonplace on pre-caliper safeties:


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic12v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic13v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic15v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic21v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...neumatic2v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...neumatic3v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...neumatic5v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...neumatic9v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic17v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic26v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...ws/sherman.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...s/child10v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...s/child14v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...s/child15v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...ws/child5v.jpg


These pictures make me wonder if the "brake" bridge was originally a
fender bridge:


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic14v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic24v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...neumatic4v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...neumatic8v.jpg

Regrettably, none of the pictures show if there's a corresponding
bridge between the chain-stays, so now I have to look for those.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Looking for bridges between chain-stays in old pictures is
frustrating.

Here, Major Taylor covers the area in question:

http://i8.tinypic.com/4katr9f.jpg

Here's the first example that I've found, a shaft-drive with a bridge
connecting the chain-stays:


http://www.nostalgic.net/arc/pre1920...e%20ladies.jpg

A similar shaft-drive with the same kind of bridge:


http://www.nostalgic.net/arc/pre1920...ft%20drive.jpg

And another 1902 shaft-drive with chain-stay bridge:

http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/1630.htm

I doubt that any of these shaft-drive bikes had their rear wheels move
forward for removal.

This old shaft drive had no chain-stay bridge, but certainly had an
odd seat-stay bridge:


http://www.nostalgic.net/arc/bicycle...0drive%204.jpg

A normal chain-drive 1910's bike with both bridges:

http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/1483.htm

I can't tell if the bridges are actually used to attach the fender,
but the upper bridge is curved to fit the fender.

Here's an 1890's girl's bike with chain-stay bridge beyond the fender:

http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/1725.htm

An 1890's board-track racer with both bridges:

http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/1732.htm

In contrast, an 1894 Pope model 36 with neither bridge:

http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle403.htm

This 1897 wooden frame has some pathetic bridges that seem intended
for the fenders:

http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle404.htm

An 1899 G&J Rambler with both bridges:


http://www.nostalgic.net/index.asp?S...r+orig+1%2Ejpg


http://www.nostalgic.net/index.asp?S...r+orig+5%2Ejpg

This weird 1900's Eagle has a seat-stay bridge:

http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/1757.htm

I _think_ that it also has a chain-stay bridge--or maybe two of them,
since it has four chain-stays:

http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/1758.htm

One chain-stay bridge might be to keep the tire from somehow getting
jammed (unlikely, since the old-fashioned axles come out backward),
but _two_ chain-stay bridges seems like an effort (possibly misguided)
to reinforce things.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

wrote in message
...
I stumbled across this fellow in the New York Times archives and
tracked him down:

http://www.showhistory.com/Kilpatric...edBicycle.html

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Just one?
http://www.pacificvillage.org/villag...0on%20bike.JPG
-tom

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:05:05 -0700, wrote:

As far as I know, the equipment pre-dates rear caliper brakes, and the
seat-stays in the picture are much too wide to trap a tire, the two
usual explanations for such bridges. It may be worth looking into old
pictures to see how early seat-stay and chain-stay bridges appeared.

Well, given the geometry, there's a *lot* of seatstay above the brake
bridge, so it makes sense simply on the grounds of triangulating the frame
tubes as much as possible. Seems to be a very small-shelled coaster brake,
that.

Jasper

In article ,
"Tom Nakashima" wrote:

wrote in message
...
I stumbled across this fellow in the New York Times archives and
tracked him down:

http://www.showhistory.com/Kilpatric...edBicycle.html

Just one?
http://www.pacificvillage.org/villag...0on%20bike.JPG

Appears to be forty spoke wheels.

--
Michael Press

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:23:06 -0700, wrote:

These pictures make me wonder if the "brake" bridge was originally a
fender bridge:

They've always been both in the utility cycles I knew. It's a lot harder
to hang a fender from the two sides, so you pretty much need 'em for a
fender. And since even coaster brake bikes would almost always have
fenders, that provides a reason for the thing to stay, if not necessarily
appear.

In the chainstays there's usually a solidly attached plate that's the
bottom fender attachment as well as the kickstand attachment point.

Jasper

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:26:33 +0100, Jasper Janssen
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:23:06 -0700, wrote:

These pictures make me wonder if the "brake" bridge was originally a
fender bridge:

They've always been both in the utility cycles I knew. It's a lot harder
to hang a fender from the two sides, so you pretty much need 'em for a
fender. And since even coaster brake bikes would almost always have
fenders, that provides a reason for the thing to stay, if not necessarily
appear.

In the chainstays there's usually a solidly attached plate that's the
bottom fender attachment as well as the kickstand attachment point.

Jasper

Dear Jasper,

So far, I've seen no kickstands in the early bikes, and lots of
bridges on track bikes that would have no fenders.

Many of these old bikes pre-dated coaster brakes.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Jasper Janssen wrote:
On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:05:05 -0700, wrote:

As far as I know, the equipment pre-dates rear caliper brakes, and the
seat-stays in the picture are much too wide to trap a tire, the two
usual explanations for such bridges. It may be worth looking into old
pictures to see how early seat-stay and chain-stay bridges appeared.

Well, given the geometry, there's a *lot* of seatstay above the brake
bridge, so it makes sense simply on the grounds of triangulating the frame
tubes as much as possible.

Jasper

Only if you don't have a hub in there. One reason for the seatstay
bridge on a bike with no caliper brakes and no fenders is to keep the
rear end from getting deformed before it's built up.

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:16:12 -0700, wrote:

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:23:06 -0700, wrote:

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:05:05 -0700, wrote:

I stumbled across this fellow in the New York Times archives and
tracked him down:

http://www.showhistory.com/Kilpatric...edBicycle.html

Here's a typical newspaper announcement:


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...9C94 679ED7CF

On an unrelated note, note the "brake" bridge with no hole that
connects the seat stays in the circus picture.

As far as I know, the equipment pre-dates rear caliper brakes, and the
seat-stays in the picture are much too wide to trap a tire, the two
usual explanations for such bridges. It may be worth looking into old
pictures to see how early seat-stay and chain-stay bridges appeared.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

"Brake" bridges turn out to be commonplace on pre-caliper safeties:


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic12v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic13v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic15v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic21v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...neumatic2v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...neumatic3v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...neumatic5v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...neumatic9v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic17v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic26v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...ws/sherman.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...s/child10v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...s/child14v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...s/child15v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...ws/child5v.jpg


These pictures make me wonder if the "brake" bridge was originally a
fender bridge:


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic14v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...eumatic24v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...neumatic4v.jpg


http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/...neumatic8v.jpg

Regrettably, none of the pictures show if there's a corresponding
bridge between the chain-stays, so now I have to look for those.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Looking for bridges between chain-stays in old pictures is
frustrating.

Here, Major Taylor covers the area in question:

http://i8.tinypic.com/4katr9f.jpg

Here's the first example that I've found, a shaft-drive with a bridge
connecting the chain-stays:


http://www.nostalgic.net/arc/pre1920...e%20ladies.jpg

A similar shaft-drive with the same kind of bridge:


http://www.nostalgic.net/arc/pre1920...ft%20drive.jpg

And another 1902 shaft-drive with chain-stay bridge:

http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/1630.htm

I doubt that any of these shaft-drive bikes had their rear wheels move
forward for removal.

This old shaft drive had no chain-stay bridge, but certainly had an
odd seat-stay bridge:


http://www.nostalgic.net/arc/bicycle...0drive%204.jpg

A normal chain-drive 1910's bike with both bridges:

http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/1483.htm

I can't tell if the bridges are actually used to attach the fender,
but the upper bridge is curved to fit the fender.

Here's an 1890's girl's bike with chain-stay bridge beyond the fender:

http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/1725.htm

An 1890's board-track racer with both bridges:

http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/1732.htm

In contrast, an 1894 Pope model 36 with neither bridge:

http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle403.htm

This 1897 wooden frame has some pathetic bridges that seem intended
for the fenders:

http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle404.htm

An 1899 G&J Rambler with both bridges:


http://www.nostalgic.net/index.asp?S...r+orig+1%2Ejpg


http://www.nostalgic.net/index.asp?S...r+orig+5%2Ejpg

This weird 1900's Eagle has a seat-stay bridge:

http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/1757.htm

I _think_ that it also has a chain-stay bridge--or maybe two of them,
since it has four chain-stays:

http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/1758.htm

One chain-stay bridge might be to keep the tire from somehow getting
jammed (unlikely, since the old-fashioned axles come out backward),
but _two_ chain-stay bridges seems like an effort (possibly misguided)
to reinforce things.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

A nice 1908 Iver Johnson track bike with both bridges, showing how the
rear wheel wouldn't be in any danger of moving forward and getting
jammed where the chain-stays narrow:


http://www.thecabe.com/arc/vintagero...20Track/i2.jpg


http://www.thecabe.com/arc/vintagero...20Track/i7.jpg

The arch under the top-tube suggests that the manufacturer may not
have understood frame bracing.

***

Here's an interesting view of one early design in which the "brake"
bridge might have made sense as a brace:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/p..._id=40621&v=9S

Note that the down tube is also double on the 1892 Firefly.

***

Even artists were drawing the "brake" bridges before caliper brakes:


http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/pics/...omers.jpg?v=BI

***

The 1898 Dursley Pedersen sports three obvious bridges, at least two
of them having no possible connection to any fender or brake:

http://www.dursley-pedersen.net/orig...8_img/stor.jpg

Another view of the non-chain-stay bridges:

http://www.dursley-pedersen.net/orig...lindemann8.jpg

And yes, there's a chain-stay bridge lurking down there, for bracing
or for fender mounting:

http://www.dursley-pedersen.net/orig..._2_img/dp2.jpg

Again, the rear wheel was in no danger of being jammed too far forward
and caught in the frame:

http://www.dursley-pedersen.net/orig..._2_img/dp7.jpg

That's a Sturmey-Archer hub in the picture above, not the bizarre
Dursely Pedersen pear-shaped gear whose pear-shaped flanges gave
wheel-builders headaches:

http://www.dursley-pedersen.net/orig..._img/gear1.jpg

http://www.dursley-pedersen.net/gear.html

***

Here's another example of how the bracing of the "brake" bridge might
have made sense on the frame of an 1895 no-rear-brake bicycle:


http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/...ans_vb_567.jpg


http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/...ans_vb_569.jpg

Obviously, bracing is a good idea for those splayed seat-stay tubes.

From the same site, a 1910 seat-stay bridge for bracing and fender and
luggage rack mounting and a chain-stay bridge for bracing and fender
mounting:


http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/...ans_vb_557.jpg

Again, bikes like these have no rear caliper brakes and their wheels
remove to the rear, with no chance of jamming forward between the
narrowing chain-tays.

***

A 1908 racer with both bridges:

http://www.museumsnett.no/ntm/no/sam.../kat78918a.jpg

***

A rather unusual bridge:

http://www.rogerco.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/anew/cycle5.jpg

***

An 1890 Pope shaft drive with chain-stay bridge, either for bracing or
mounting the fender:

http://rustyspokes.com/menu11/100.JPG

***

Here's an astonishing frame with _no_ bridges. Note that there's no
seat-tube, just a wooden fender braced by seat-stays:

http://i1.tinypic.com/73ka807.jpg

It's an 1891 Elliott ladies hickory from the Metz Museum. Note the
pedal-length adjustment slots, infinitely superior to our modern fixed
length cranks, the motorcycle-style master-link, the dainty front
fork, the naked headset resembling a high-wheeler, and the wooden
spokes that eliminate the stress-relief debate.

The dingus sticking down behind the crank that nearly touches the rear
tire is probably a primitive rear spoon brake whose connecting
mechanism is missing--there's a right hand brake lever, but no
provision for a front spoon brake.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel