So we were drooling over the 09 Kona catalog as I stopped by the LBSfor coffee

On Sep 3, 5:25*pm, landotter wrote:
On Sep 3, 2:49*pm, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

Because the industry talks to people that ride, not to people that
don't. Kona and all the other bike makers need to make a very
functional and useful bicycle that is fun and functional and
reliable.

A usenet contributor needs to look at the Kona site and realize that
Kona makes some *****ing practical bikes IN ADDITION TO MAKING SOME
SILLY STUFF BECAUSE IT'S FUN TO MAKE SILLY STUFF. *(scream
intentional)

Geez you're a stick in the mud.

Nope, I'm a 'industry' guy that doesn't like to see the industry
shrink.

On Sep 3, 6:20*pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:
Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:

[...]
Few things in the last 2 decades have actually made cycling better.
One was lever mounted shifting. DT shifting is a fringe market and
would actually take people out of the already flat bike market. Fender
eyelets(good) but not for a rack.[...]

Peter forgets to mention reasonably priced and commercially available
recumbent bicycles and trikes.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

Not goin' there.

Jon wrote:

A Muzi wrote


Chalo wrote:
What a non-cyclist considers fun and functional in a bike is likely to
prove a whole lot less than fun or functional, to say nothing of
reliable, for an actual cyclist.

What is an "actual cyclist"?

Someone who actually rides actual bicycles, often and long enough to
have a good sense of what a bike actually does.

How was BikeE design not reliable? *(implementation had its
glitches with some recalls for forks and swing arms, etc...)

It is reliable in that you know with absolute certainty that you are
completely hosed if your hands leave the grips for a fraction of a
second. That much I know from trying to make a BikeE CT my around-
town transportation during my first stay in Seattle.

Tom Sherman wrote:
What is wrong with the BikeE [1] that a few minor tweaks could not have
fixed?

Chalo wrote:
Where do you "tweak" a bike that handles like you're trying to ride it
backwards?

I never experienced *a feeling of "handles like you're trying to ride it
backwards" on my BikeE. *Nor did apparently and of the dozens
of people from age 7 to 70 who tried mine. *All able to ride it
within minutes of starting...

I have built and ridden enough choppers and other improvised vehicles
to make a distinction between a bike that _can_ be ridden and a bike
that rides well. The BikeE can be ridden. So can these bikes:

http://dclxvi.org/chunk/meet/springy/index.html

Of my three recumbents, the BikeE has the best low-speed tight
handling characteristics. *

That pretty much sums it up, doesn't it? "Of my three genital
piercings, the Prince Albert is the most comfortable and
convenient."

Chalo

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
On Sep 3, 6:20 pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:
Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:

[...]
Few things in the last 2 decades have actually made cycling better.
One was lever mounted shifting. DT shifting is a fringe market and
would actually take people out of the already flat bike market. Fender
eyelets(good) but not for a rack.[...]
Peter forgets to mention reasonably priced and commercially available
recumbent bicycles and trikes.


Not goin' there.

So Peter did notice the smiley emoticon?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

Tom Sherman wrote:

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:

[...]
Few things in the last 2 decades have actually made cycling better.
One was lever mounted shifting. DT shifting is a fringe market and
would actually take people out of the already flat bike market. Fender
eyelets(good) but not for a rack.[...]

Peter forgets to mention reasonably priced and commercially available
recumbent bicycles and trikes.

http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...ductId=3200336

Chalo

Chalo Colina wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote:
Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
[...]
Few things in the last 2 decades have actually made cycling better.
One was lever mounted shifting. DT shifting is a fringe market and
would actually take people out of the already flat bike market. Fender
eyelets(good) but not for a rack.[...]
Peter forgets to mention reasonably priced and commercially available
recumbent bicycles and trikes.

http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...ductId=3200336

Rear wheel steering can be funky, at least on the Thebis Trike:
http://www.jggrafx.com/thomsstuff/thebis1.jpg.

N.B. I am NOT presenting the Thebis as a proper design.

Actually, Chalo would make a good Thebis owner, since he could machine
replacements for all the odd proprietary parts.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

Tom Sherman wrote:

Chalo Colina wrote:

Tom Sherman wrote:

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
[...]
Few things in the last 2 decades have actually made cycling better.
One was lever mounted shifting. DT shifting is a fringe market and
would actually take people out of the already flat bike market. Fender
eyelets(good) but not for a rack.[...]
Peter forgets to mention reasonably priced and commercially available
recumbent bicycles and trikes.

http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...ductId=3200336

Rear wheel steering can be funky, at least on the Thebis Trike:
http://www.jggrafx.com/thomsstuff/thebis1.jpg.

N.B. I am NOT presenting the Thebis as a proper design.

There is also the Culty trike, with both rear steering and independent
tilting:

http://www.culty.de/

I understand from secondhand accounts that the Culty does not make use
of a cyclist's existing skill sets.

Chalo

On Sep 4, 8:55*pm, Chalo wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote:

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:

[...]
Few things in the last 2 decades have actually made cycling better.
One was lever mounted shifting. DT shifting is a fringe market and
would actually take people out of the already flat bike market. Fender
eyelets(good) but not for a rack.[...]

Peter forgets to mention reasonably priced and commercially available
recumbent bicycles and trikes.

http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...ductId=3200336

Chalo

Hmph! The recumbent trike for latte-sipping elitists.
They forgot to show the behind-the-seat arugula
basket.

Real Americans have been riding reasonably-priced
recumbent trikes for years:

http://www.target.com/Big-Wheel-16-I...dp/B00160A8SC/

Ben

Chalo wrote:

It is reliable in that you know with absolute certainty that you are
completely hosed if your hands leave the grips for a fraction of a
second.

That's true of many bicycle designs with no or very limited trail, which
includes a lot of recumbents.

"Doctor! Doctor! It hurts when I do this!"
"Then don't do that."

I have built and ridden enough choppers and other improvised vehicles
to make a distinction between a bike that _can_ be ridden and a bike
that rides well.

Differrent people have different ideas of rides well. The Brompton has
minimal trail and many riders complain it is twitchy. I like it because
I find the steering responsive. One man's meat, etc. That /you/ don't
personally like it doesn't make it an objectively bad machine.

Of my three recumbents, the BikeE has the best low-speed tight
handling characteristics.

That pretty much sums it up, doesn't it? "Of my three genital
piercings, the Prince Albert is the most comfortable and
convenient."

Well, no, not really. "Best low speed tight handling" could well mean
"star of the show in dense urban traffic".

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Chalo" wrote
Jon wrote:

Chalo wrote:
to say nothing of reliable, for an actual cyclist.

What is an "actual cyclist"?

Someone who actually rides actual bicycles, often and long enough to
have a good sense of what a bike actually does.

How about more than 15,000 miles of recumbent cycling?
Is that an actual cyclist?

But you tell me, what does a bike "actually do"?

How was BikeE design not reliable? (implementation had its
glitches with some recalls for forks and swing arms, etc...)

It is reliable in that you know with absolute certainty that you are
completely hosed if your hands leave the grips for a fraction of a
second.

How come my son and wife, and many other riders have fallen
for exactly that reason on while riding upright bikes?

That much I know from trying to make a BikeE CT my around-
town transportation during my first stay in Seattle.

I'm certainly willing to believe that for some people, perhaps
many, for some applications, a BikeE CT wouldn't be the best
bike. All bicycle designs represent compromises. Are there
upright bike designs better suited for self supported touring
than others? Are there upright bike designs better suited
for gravel roads or muddy trails than others?

Where do you "tweak" a bike that handles like you're
trying to ride it backwards?

I never experienced a feeling of "handles like you're
trying to ride it backwards" on my BikeE.

Again you offer no meainingful support for the assertion
that the BikeE "handles like you're trying to ride it backwards".
If there were true, how is that so many people found it so
easy to ride mine the first time without any problems?

distinction between a bike that _can_ be ridden and a bike
that rides well.

The BikeE has different handling characteristics than an upright
bike. I can and did ride it well for a number of years as my
only bike. And I still do ride mine. For a jump on and go
bicycle, for short errands, 4-5 miles, it's hard to beat. For
self-supported touring, it's not my first choice, my Tour
Easy is. For 60 mile hilly rides, the BikeE is not my first
choice, my Voale is. But I did self-supported weekend
tours with my BikeE and I road it on many long rides with
upright riding friends.

The BikeE can be ridden. So can these bikes:

http://dclxvi.org/chunk/meet/springy/index.html

Ok, so now I know you're not serious.

Of my three recumbents, the BikeE has the best low-speed tight
handling characteristics.

That pretty much sums it up, doesn't it? "Of my three genital
piercings, the Prince Albert is the most comfortable and
convenient."

Once again, a demonstration of your intent to avoid actual
discussion.

You assert the BikeE is an unqualified failed design
inspired by non-cyclists, but the only substantiation you
can offer is that the BikeE cannot be ridden hands free?

Come on. I *like* the BikeE and I can make better
design criticisms than that! Nothing, however, that
makes it not fun, not functional, or not reliable, though.

Jon