Regional and School Buses!

I am ready to do battle with two bus companies; my public city bus
system and a local school bus company. A frequent example of their
disrespect for cyclists involves a maneuver where the bus speeds up
approaching an intersection and the makes a right across the path of
the cyclist (me in this case)! It drives me nuts! The attitude of
the driver is clear. Get out of my way or be crushed!

"stratrider" wrote in message
...
I am ready to do battle with two bus companies; my public city bus
system and a local school bus company. A frequent example of their
disrespect for cyclists involves a maneuver where the bus speeds up
approaching an intersection and the makes a right across the path of
the cyclist (me in this case)! It drives me nuts! The attitude of
the driver is clear. Get out of my way or be crushed!

Don't assume you are going to change this by jawboning city administrators.
The key here is to remember that getting out of the way is always preferred
to being the crushed victim who was within their rights. Aside from the
fact your family could possibly sue for mega bucks and collect, of course.
On the other hand, if a city bus did the dastardly deed your family will
probably be sol.

Scream at them, give them the finger, throw rocks at them, curse at city
officials, or whatever, but keep on getting out of the way.

"wilson" wrote in message
. ..

"stratrider" wrote in message
...
I am ready to do battle with two bus companies; my public city bus
system and a local school bus company. A frequent example of their
disrespect for cyclists involves a maneuver where the bus speeds up
approaching an intersection and the makes a right across the path of
the cyclist (me in this case)! It drives me nuts! The attitude of
the driver is clear. Get out of my way or be crushed!

An even more obviously malicious incident with a public bus
driver happened to me. Most dangerous part for me was when
the driver pulled in front of me an slammed on his brakes.
I am wary riding through that part of town now. If it happens
again, I will have at least a cellphone picture of the bus
showing the number if not video of the drivers' behavior.
I won't yell and scream. I will file a complaint.

Don't assume you are going to change this by jawboning
city administrators.

It seems to me that calmly relaying your experiences to the
bus operating company managers *is* a good first step.
Follow up with a letter including as much details for the who,
what, when and where... Ask for specific corrective action.
Document the reponses you get. Follow up and escalate.

Your city, school district, and state likely have oversight
boards for public transit operators. Contact them. Find
out how to file a complaint. Go to city council and school
board meetings. Sign up to speak.

Even better, videos showing aggressive public bus driving
may be a very effective means for changing behavior. Copies
of these delivered to transportation supervisors and the public
officials who oversee them can have an impact. They really
don't want that sort of bad PR. Getting a local TV public
affairs reporter interested can raise the profile.

If the incident occurs with some regularity at the same location,
getting a several eye-witnesses and a video recording shouldn't
be too difficult. If you can arrange to have the video shot by
an off-duty police officer, or a local TV station, so much the
better. %^)

Scream at them, give them the finger, throw rocks at them,
curse at city officials, or whatever,

These responses won't help prevent the situation in the future.
In my opinion, acting in anger won't help you to have a "happier"
ride either. %^)

but keep on getting out of the way.

By all means, be safe. Ride friendly, too.

Of course, if you're going to complain about someone elses'
driving, you need to be able to demonstrate that you're riding
as required by local and state ordinances.

Jon

"Jon" wrote in message
...
"wilson" wrote in message
. ..

"stratrider" wrote in message
...
I am ready to do battle with two bus companies; my public city bus
system and a local school bus company. A frequent example of their
disrespect for cyclists involves a maneuver where the bus speeds up
approaching an intersection and the makes a right across the path of
the cyclist (me in this case)! It drives me nuts! The attitude of
the driver is clear. Get out of my way or be crushed!

An even more obviously malicious incident with a public bus
driver happened to me. Most dangerous part for me was when
the driver pulled in front of me an slammed on his brakes.
I am wary riding through that part of town now. If it happens
again, I will have at least a cellphone picture of the bus
showing the number if not video of the drivers' behavior.
I won't yell and scream. I will file a complaint.

Don't assume you are going to change this by jawboning
city administrators.

It seems to me that calmly relaying your experiences to the
bus operating company managers *is* a good first step.
Follow up with a letter including as much details for the who,
what, when and where... Ask for specific corrective action.
Document the reponses you get. Follow up and escalate.

Your city, school district, and state likely have oversight
boards for public transit operators. Contact them. Find
out how to file a complaint. Go to city council and school
board meetings. Sign up to speak.

Even better, videos showing aggressive public bus driving
may be a very effective means for changing behavior. Copies
of these delivered to transportation supervisors and the public
officials who oversee them can have an impact. They really
don't want that sort of bad PR. Getting a local TV public
affairs reporter interested can raise the profile.

If the incident occurs with some regularity at the same location,
getting a several eye-witnesses and a video recording shouldn't
be too difficult. If you can arrange to have the video shot by
an off-duty police officer, or a local TV station, so much the
better. %^)

Scream at them, give them the finger, throw rocks at them,
curse at city officials, or whatever,

These responses won't help prevent the situation in the future.
In my opinion, acting in anger won't help you to have a "happier"
ride either. %^)

but keep on getting out of the way.

By all means, be safe. Ride friendly, too.

Of course, if you're going to complain about someone elses'
driving, you need to be able to demonstrate that you're riding
as required by local and state ordinances.

Jon



Yes all that is good. My point is that neither calmly relating your
experiences to nodding bureaucrats or screaming and cursing at careless
drivers who can't hear you will assure you that you will be seen by the next
driver at any point in time. To assume otherwise is to beg to be a victim.
I suggest you assume you are invisible and be prepared to get out of the way
when a driver makes an unexpected move. If you read cycling newsgroups you
will see threads about dead cyclist run over by drivers who didn't see them
or weren't paying attention. Twenty to thirty people will rail on about the
stupid drivers and why won't the courts do something about this outrageous
situation. Then the subject shifts to someone who has just bought the
latest and greatest bike. And so it goes. Better to not be the subject of
one of those threads if you can help it. Be mindful of the possibilities at
all times. Aside from that do whatever makes you feel good. Just don't
lull yourself into feeling safe in automobile traffic.

"wilson" wrote in message
. ..

"Jon" wrote in message
...
"wilson" wrote in message
. ..

"stratrider" wrote in message
...
I am ready to do battle with two bus companies; my public city bus
system and a local school bus company. A frequent example of their
disrespect for cyclists involves a maneuver where the bus speeds up
approaching an intersection and the makes a right across the path of
the cyclist (me in this case)! It drives me nuts! The attitude of
the driver is clear. Get out of my way or be crushed!

An even more obviously malicious incident with a public bus
driver happened to me. Most dangerous part for me was when
the driver pulled in front of me an slammed on his brakes.
I am wary riding through that part of town now. If it happens
again, I will have at least a cellphone picture of the bus
showing the number if not video of the drivers' behavior.
I won't yell and scream. I will file a complaint.

Don't assume you are going to change this by jawboning
city administrators.

It seems to me that calmly relaying your experiences to the
bus operating company managers *is* a good first step.
Follow up with a letter including as much details for the who,
what, when and where... Ask for specific corrective action.
Document the reponses you get. Follow up and escalate.

Your city, school district, and state likely have oversight
boards for public transit operators. Contact them. Find
out how to file a complaint. Go to city council and school
board meetings. Sign up to speak.

Even better, videos showing aggressive public bus driving
may be a very effective means for changing behavior. Copies
of these delivered to transportation supervisors and the public
officials who oversee them can have an impact. They really
don't want that sort of bad PR. Getting a local TV public
affairs reporter interested can raise the profile.

If the incident occurs with some regularity at the same location,
getting a several eye-witnesses and a video recording shouldn't
be too difficult. If you can arrange to have the video shot by
an off-duty police officer, or a local TV station, so much the
better. %^)

Scream at them, give them the finger, throw rocks at them,
curse at city officials, or whatever,

These responses won't help prevent the situation in the future.
In my opinion, acting in anger won't help you to have a "happier"
ride either. %^)

but keep on getting out of the way.

By all means, be safe. Ride friendly, too.

Of course, if you're going to complain about someone elses'
driving, you need to be able to demonstrate that you're riding
as required by local and state ordinances.

Jon



Yes all that is good. My point is that neither calmly relating your
experiences to nodding bureaucrats or screaming and cursing at careless
drivers who can't hear you will assure you that you will be seen by the
next driver at any point in time. To assume otherwise is to beg to be a
victim. I suggest you assume you are invisible and be prepared to get out
of the way when a driver makes an unexpected move. If you read cycling
newsgroups you will see threads about dead cyclist run over by drivers who
didn't see them or weren't paying attention. Twenty to thirty people will
rail on about the stupid drivers and why won't the courts do something
about this outrageous situation. Then the subject shifts to someone who
has just bought the latest and greatest bike. And so it goes. Better to
not be the subject of one of those threads if you can help it. Be mindful
of the possibilities at all times. Aside from that do whatever makes you
feel good. Just don't lull yourself into feeling safe in automobile
traffic.

Wilson is a genius on my level. Whenever I read a message on these freaking
cycling newsgroups which has any common sense connected to it I am
astonished and think that all is not lost after all.

All that matters when you are cycling is your own safety. Anything else is
secondary by far. Get the hell out of the way of motor vehicles. They do not
want you on the road in the first instance and when they run over you, they
will say they did not see you and get off scot free. Those are the facts of
life and there is not one dman thing you will ever be able to do about it.
Being able to cycle on the road with motor vehicles is a privledge and not a
right despite what the laws have to say about it.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

On May 22, 5:25*pm, "Edward Dolan" wrote:

All that matters when you are cycling is your own safety. Anything else is
secondary by far. Get the hell out of the way of motor vehicles. They do not
want you on the road in the first instance and when they run over you, they
will say they did not see you and get off scot free.

Ed, there's no better point to make than that one. Anticipate. No
from experience what's going to happen and get OUT of the way! After
that, I would still love to get the driver out of the bus and have a
pleasant, civil, discussion with him. Yeah right... Pleasant and
civil. Ha.

"wilson" wrote in message

Yes all that is good. My point is that neither calmly relating your
experiences to nodding bureaucrats [n]or screaming and cursing at careless
drivers who can't hear you will assure you that you will be seen by the
next driver at any point in time. To assume otherwise is to beg to be a
victim.

I never suggested we assume such. However, educating public
bus drivers to respect cyclists is not spitting the the wind. Cursing
and screaming is. In the case of repeated, intentionally malicious
and threatening behavior by employees of a public transit
operating company, the corrective action is clear...

As for not being a victim when cycling, simply "getting out of
peoples' way" isn't the complete answer. Consider which is
safer, hugging the curb or taking the lane. There are a number
of circumstances when the safer, the intelligent thing to do is
to take the lane.

I suggest you assume you are invisible and be prepared to
get out of the way when a driver makes an unexpected move.

In the description of the orignially posted incident and in
mine, the issue was not one of "invisibility". It was one of
certain visibility and certain disregard if not vehicular
assault against the cyclist.

Be mindful of the possibilities at all times.

Obviously we must be aware of the circumstances in
which we ride. But there's no way *always* to be able
to "get out of the way when a driver makes an unexpected
move" under *all circumstances* when riding anymore than
that can be done while driving or walking.

I am keenly aware of cars around me when cycling. In about
15,000 miles of recumbent riding, I have never been hit. I've
had only 2-3 somewhat "close calls" in my last decade of
riding, none life threatening. I have avoided many more
close calls by situaltional awareness and taking action,
usually well in advance, sometimes by slowing down,
sometimes by speeding up, sometimes by getting out
of the way, sometimes by taking the lane...

Aside from that do whatever makes you feel good. Just don't lull yourself
into feeling safe in automobile traffic.

I don't feel unsafe when riding.

In terms of risk of fataility per hour of exposure, cyclists
are statistically safer than motor vehicle occupants.
Nearly twice as safe, by some measurements:

fatalities
Activity per million hrs
-------- ---------------
Skydiving 128.71
General Aviation 15.58
On-road Motorcycling 8.80
Scuba Diving 1.98
Living (all causes of death) 1.53
Swimming 1.07
Snowmobiling .88
Passenger cars .47
Water skiing .28
Bicycling .26
Flying (scheduled domestic airlines) .15
Hunting .08
Cosmic Radiation from transcont. flights .035
Home Living (active) .027
Traveling in a School Bus .022
Passenger Car Post-collision fire .017
Home Living, active & passive (sleeping) .014
Residential Fire .003

Compiled by Failure Analysis Associates, Inc.

Jon

"Jon" wrote in message
...
"wilson" wrote in message

Yes all that is good. My point is that neither calmly relating your
experiences to nodding bureaucrats [n]or screaming and cursing at
careless drivers who can't hear you will assure you that you will be seen
by the next driver at any point in time. To assume otherwise is to beg
to be a victim.

I never suggested we assume such. However, educating public
bus drivers to respect cyclists is not spitting the the wind. Cursing
and screaming is. In the case of repeated, intentionally malicious
and threatening behavior by employees of a public transit
operating company, the corrective action is clear...


I think before you do that you need more information. Stratrider didn't
give enough info to make those assertions.


As for not being a victim when cycling, simply "getting out of
peoples' way" isn't the complete answer. Consider which is
safer, hugging the curb or taking the lane. There are a number
of circumstances when the safer, the intelligent thing to do is
to take the lane.


Yes. Always do the safer, intelligent thing. To qoute Mr. Dolan, in the
off chance you've kill filed him, "All that matters when you are cycling is
your own safety. Anything else is secondary by far. Get the hell out of the
way of motor vehicles. They do not want you on the road in the first
instance and when they run over you, they will say they did not see you and
get off scot free. "

"Taking the lane" doesn't mean you are automatically afforded the protection
of the Savior's white light.



In the description of the orignially posted incident and in
mine, the issue was not one of "invisibility". It was one of
certain visibility and certain disregard if not vehicular
assault against the cyclist.

Be mindful of the possibilities at all times.

Obviously we must be aware of the circumstances in
which we ride. But there's no way *always* to be able
to "get out of the way when a driver makes an unexpected
move" under *all circumstances* when riding anymore than
that can be done while driving or walking.


Yes, of course. This is the risk one must consider in cycling.


I am keenly aware of cars around me when cycling. In about
15,000 miles of recumbent riding, I have never been hit. I've
had only 2-3 somewhat "close calls" in my last decade of
riding, none life threatening. I have avoided many more
close calls by situaltional awareness and taking action,
usually well in advance, sometimes by slowing down,
sometimes by speeding up, sometimes by getting out
of the way, sometimes by taking the lane...


You've been doing something right. Keep it up.


Aside from that do whatever makes you feel good. Just don't lull
yourself into feeling safe in automobile traffic.

I don't feel unsafe when riding.

In terms of risk of fataility per hour of exposure, cyclists
are statistically safer than motor vehicle occupants.
Nearly twice as safe, by some measurements:


So you say. In a school bus/bike accident I'll take the bus and you can
take the bike if it will make you feel safer.

"Jon" wrote in message
...
[...]
As for not being a victim when cycling, simply "getting out of
peoples' way" isn't the complete answer. Consider which is
safer, hugging the curb or taking the lane. There are a number
of circumstances when the safer, the intelligent thing to do is
to take the lane.

If those are the only two choices you need to consider a new route. I don't
feel safe hugging the curb any more than I feel safe taking the lane.
Cyclists need a certain amount of room out of the lane of traffic, and if
you don't have it, find yourself another road. Taking the lane is seldom a
good choice. It ****es motorists off because you are slowing them down.
[...]

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"wilson" wrote

"Jon" wrote
"wilson" wrote in message

[...] However, educating public
bus drivers to respect cyclists is not spitting the the wind. Cursing
and screaming is. In the case of repeated, intentionally malicious
and threatening behavior by employees of a public transit
operating company, the corrective action is clear...

I think before you do that you need more information. Stratrider didn't
give enough info to make those assertions.

I have not asserted that Stratrider's experience
deomstrates intentional action by the driver, but
from his context, it sounds like he believes the
actions are intentional. He wrote:

"A frequent example of their disrespect for
cyclists involves a maneuver where the bus
speeds up approaching an intersection and
the makes a right across the path of the
cyclist (me in this case)!"

I simply asserted:

1) educating public bus drivers to respect cyclists is
not spitting the the wind

2) the corrective action is clear for employees of a
public transit operating company who repeatedly
intentionally threaten cyclists by their behavior.

These are supportable assertions regardless of what
happend to Stratrider. His may be a case of
the bus drivers not being careful. But if it happens
repeatedly, endangering cyclists by turning in front
of them, even without malice or intent, it is negligence.
It is unsafe driving. Such bus drivers need to be
educated and monitored for compliance with safe
driving procedures.

In my case, bus driver behavior was definitely intentional,
malicous and threatening. It has not been repeated.

Yes. Always do the safer, intelligent thing. [...] "Taking the lane"
doesn't mean you are automatically
afforded the protection

That's a straw man falacy. Taking the lane is safer
in some circumstances than not taking it.

I don't feel unsafe when riding.

In terms of risk of fataility per hour of exposure, cyclists
are statistically safer than motor vehicle occupants.
Nearly twice as safe, by some measurements:

So you say. In a school bus/bike accident I'll take the
bus and you can take the bike if it will make you feel safer.

Actually, not "as I say". The risk of fatality per hour of
exposure is a statistical analysis. The risk of bus/bike
fataility accidents is included in the statistics. As is
the risk of the cyclist being flatten by a steam roller,
or struck and killed by a meteorite, ...

Cycling, even on streets shared with motor vehicles,
is not particularly dangerous compared to things we
don't generally think of as very dangerous at all.

There are ways of improving safety while cycling
around car, yes. Those ways don't simply involve
"getting out of their way".

Jon