Habanero shows up curved stays

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 17:22:34 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/17/2017 1:57 PM, Duane wrote:

I'm just wondering why? Is there some requirement to only get parts at a
department store?

No, but it was kind of nice when you could go into a hardware store or
department store or drug store and buy basic bike stuff like tires,
chains, brake pads, racks, pedals, seats, etc. If you go into a
department store in Asia it's like stores in the U.S. used to be, they
did not get rid of all the merchandise that doesn't have 300% or more
mark-ups.

One issue is that bicycle shops often have bankers hours or worse, other
than Performance. REI also has good hours.

But Amazon is always open :-)

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 10:56:48 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 1:28:23 AM UTC-7, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:42:48 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-04-16 12:33, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, April 15, 2017 at 11:33:43 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped
Been to a department store lately? You'd be hard pressed to find rim
brake shoes in there.
Snipped

Up here I can go into any department store and buy brake pads for cantilever, road or V-brakes.


During my last visit to the Walmart in Placerville about two month ago I
looked and saw ... nada, zip, zilch. Our Sears doesn't even carry
bicycle parts anymore.

Funny. Monday is my wife's "shopping day" and we usually visit several
very large stores. The first place that sells a very broad range of
stuff from fresh chicken to PVC plumbing pipe had bicycle rim brake
pads. The second place was Tesco Lotus (ask a Brit about Tesco) and
they had rim brake pads and finally a sort of copy-cat of Tesco named
"Big C" and Lo! They had brake pads also. By the way, the first place
had your cheap Thai made tires for 129 baht each, about $3.76 at
today's exchange rate.

You 'mericans must have very limited shopping facilities.

John, you ain't seen nothing yet. After Moonbeam Brown is done with doubling the gas tax (after he SAID he's only going to use about half of it to repair the roads) when the last two times he increased the tax to repair the roads he didn't spend one red cent doing so, the suckers are all lining up and saying "Yeah, we need the roads repaired."

I'm not sure whether increasing the cost of fuel actually has a long
term effect on vehicle use. After all, how else could one get to work?
Walk? That would be construed as cruel and unusual punishment in
California, wouldn't it? Against the constitution or something.

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 07:35:20 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-04-17 01:28, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:42:48 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-04-16 12:33, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, April 15, 2017 at 11:33:43 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped
Been to a department store lately? You'd be hard pressed to find rim
brake shoes in there.
Snipped

Up here I can go into any department store and buy brake pads for cantilever, road or V-brakes.


During my last visit to the Walmart in Placerville about two month ago I
looked and saw ... nada, zip, zilch. Our Sears doesn't even carry
bicycle parts anymore.

Funny. Monday is my wife's "shopping day" and we usually visit several
very large stores. The first place that sells a very broad range of
stuff from fresh chicken to PVC plumbing pipe had bicycle rim brake
pads. The second place was Tesco Lotus (ask a Brit about Tesco) and
they had rim brake pads and finally a sort of copy-cat of Tesco named
"Big C" and Lo! They had brake pads also. By the way, the first place
had your cheap Thai made tires for 129 baht each, about $3.76 at
today's exchange rate.


Ah, in Thailand. That's a very different place compared to here. A place
where people still service their own vehicles like they did here in the
good old days. I suspect the key reason why you can hardly find brake
pads in stores other than (some) bike shops is that most people in the
US would buy a new $199 bicycle at the department store and ride it
maybe five miles, realize that now all sorts of muscles ache, and then
it sits in the garage until some yard sale 10 years later. Servicing
such a bike? Not gonna happen.


Quite the contrary. Thailand is a place where people do not service
their own vehicles. Historically because if one could afford a vehicle
one certainly did not wish to dirty one's hands servicing it.
Gentlemen (nor Ladies) do not get their hands dirty!

As for stocking goods the larger stores in this country stock what
sells. Example, Home Pro in Bangkok used to stock alcohol in gallon
cans - used to thin varnish, I believe. Now they have stopped stocking
it as well as varnish as no one bought it (except me, I guess).

My LBS is just the same. They will bring in something new - high end
folding bikes for example. They didn't sell so they no longer stock
them. A local bicycle parts wholesaler no longer stocks bicycle wheel
parts, rims, spokes, hubs. No demand.

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 07:17:57 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-04-17 01:28, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 07:18:59 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-04-15 19:03, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 10:25:58 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-04-14 20:03, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 07:15:49 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-04-13 17:39, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/13/2017 7:13 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-04-13 17:10, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/13/2017 7:02 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-04-13 16:19, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 2:37:11 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
On April 13, 2017, jbeattie wrote:

- snip snippy snip-
I so wish someone would offer an o-ringed bike chain. To
hell with efficiency and all that, I just want to ride and
not start hearing squeaks after every little rain.

I am not an expert but a quick perusal of motorcycle chain
seems to
indicate that o-ring 1/2" pitch chain exists. For any
single speed or
internal gearbox setup, a wider chain would work just fine
as long as
it's 1/2".


Unfortunately my bikes are all derailer types, two with
7-speed and one 10-speed (but that could be "downgraded"). I
really don't want to spend 1.5 kilobucks on a Rohloff.


There will never be an o-ring derailleur chain, requirements for those
two formats being diametrically opposed.


Never say never. That's what people told us with intravascular
ultrasound and then we made it happen. Even HP had thrown in the towel.

Regarding getting sideways-moving or bending things to seal one of the
pioneers was Andre Citroen. Folks said that front wheel drive is a
stupid idea because of the steering, that it would never last, yet he
and his engineers did it. Despite the fact that back then they did not
have all the moderns silicone materials and other stuff that we take for
granted. Unfortunately he died from cancer at a young age.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front-...tion_avant.jpg

I had its tiny little brother when I was young. The technology in there
was simple but amazing.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...0288067%29.jpg


I hate to disagree but the first front wheel drive "automobile" seems
to be sometime between 1895 and 1898 Gräf & Stift built a voiturette
with a one-cylinder De Dion-Bouton engine fitted in the front of the
vehicle, powering the front axle.

Then we have the French manufacturer Société Parisienne patented, in
1898/9, their front-wheel drive articulated vehicle concept which they
manufactured as a Victoria Combination.

Ad then we have J. Walter Christie of the United States who patented a
design for a front-wheel-drive car, the first prototype of which he
built in 1904. He promoted and demonstrated the vehicle by racing at
various speedways in the United States, and even competed in the 1906
Vanderbilt Cup and the French Grand Prix. In 1912

And then we have the supercharged Alvis 12/50 racing car designed by
George Thomas Smith-Clarke and William M. Dunn of Alvis Cars of the
United Kingdom in 1925.

Oh yes, there was the Miller 122 front-wheel-drive racecar that was
entered in the 1925 Indianapolis 500.

And of course, in 1929. The BSA (Birmingham Small Arms Company)
produced the unique front-wheel-drive BSA three-wheeler. Production
continued until 1936.

In 1931 the DKW F1 from Germany made its debut. Buckminster Fuller
adopted rear-engine, front wheel drive for his three Dymaxion Car
prototypes. Other German car producers followed: Stoewer offered a car
with front-wheel drive in 1931, Adler in 1932 and Audi in 1933.

And, finally, in 1934, the very successful Traction Avant cars were
introduced by Citroën of France.

Some 40 years after the first front wheel drive automobile


I didn't say he invented front-wheel drive. What he did was engineer a
solution that would finally fix the main reliability issues with front
wheel drive. To me a lot of importance is in the achievement of truly
"reducing a method to practice", not just inventing something nice but
actually making it last.

The DKW was the first true series production front-wheel drive car.
Still, only 4000 were made in total. Not much to write home about.
Citroen made way more than twice than many. Per year, except when German
bombers flattened parts of the plant. Many of those are still rolling on
the streets today.

http://www.lacentrale.fr/auto-occasi...-63351581.html

In the 80's and 90's I have seen some of them in France that were
clearly used for transportation and not as collector's cars. Dull paint,
lots of dents, untreated corrosion, worn out seats, smoking engines.


I was remarking on your statement: "one of the
pioneers was Andre Citroen. Folks said that front wheel drive is a
stupid idea because of the steering, that it would never last, yet he
and his engineers did it."

He wasn't a pioneer, he was, in automobile terms, a late comer to the
front drive playing ground..


As I said, with "did it" I meant he made it truly work. Would good does
a technology do if there is no meaningful production volume behind it or
it breaks down all the time? Then it's usually just another pie in the sky.

Sounds great.... but I'm sorry to say that I've seen a great many
front wheel drive vehicles that did not copy the Citroen front wheel
drive mechanism and worked very well indeed.


Doing it after someone else truly reduced it to practice is rather simple.


... From what little I've
read Citroen's major achievement was the 2CV which was a copy of the
Henry Ford concept - built a car so cheap that anyone can afford it.


Then you haven't understood Citroen's concept :-)

I had a 2CV. That was a car they built for farmers but it became sort of
a cult-vehicle and it is very different from a Ford back then. Yes, has
front-wheel drive as well.

I still don't think that you understate. In the early 1900's
automobiles were built for and purchased by rich people. Henry Ford
was the first to realize that there were a lot more poor people then
rich and started building cars to sell to poor folks. He once said
that his aim was to build a car cheap enough that his employees could
afford one. He did and they did and very shortly there were more
Fords on the road than all of the other cars combined.

Which is what Citroen attempted to do with the 2CV, although I suspect
that as the economy had grown by the time that they tried it they were
less successful then Ford had been.




Now I am not a big Citroen fan even though I owned one. The quality of
the rest of the vehicle IMHO left something to be desires. Corrosion was
a major problem and that is how my 2CV ultimatley came to grief. It ran
great but could no longer pass the mandatory road worthiness test. I
have to hand it to them though that the road handling of their cars is
supreme, including and especially on nasty road surfaces. Like we often
have in California where I sometimes fear it'll shake my road bike apart.

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 10:56:23 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-04-17 10:01, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 9:23:10 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-04-17 09:09, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 11:15:25 AM UTC-4, Andrew Chaplin
wrote:

[...]


Mind you, if you're riding a Supercycle, you're taking your
life in your hands. -- Andrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT
SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to
get "yourfinger." out.)

All I know is that if I go into a department store around here
that sells bikes, then i can usually find brake shoes for
cantilever,V-brakes and or road bike brake shoes. I VERY SELDOM
see disc brake pads in a department store.Joerg lives in a
strange area where EVERYTHING is contrary to whatthe vast
majority of bicyclists experience anywhere else.


Just travel to Placerville and walk into the Walmart, then see for
yourself. Yes, that is a department store. Yes, they sell lots of
bicycles. No, they did not have any brake pads.

Which is odd. The Folsom and Rocklin Walmarts have v-brake pads in
stock according to the Walmart website. Luckily, Placerville has a
bike shop. http://placervillebike.com/

I think the point is that you're not going to find BB-7, Juicy,
Shimano road hydraulic brake pads in the the "middle of nowhere" or
in a non-bike store, which is a fair statement. In contrast, you can
find v-brake pads in a lot of retail junk shops from chain sporting
goods to Walmarts. Our local supermarket chain carries rim brake
pads.
https://www.fredmeyer.com/searching?...roducts&page=1

You are far more likely to find a v-brake pad in a non-bike store
than a disc brake pad. So what does that mean? Take some disc brake
pads on your next long tour, or just pay attention to pad wear so you
can pick up a set when you're passing through civilization.

And, BTW, you're not going to find a 9-11sp chain in the middle of
nowhere. The typical junk store chain is a 7-8sp.
http://tinyurl.com/m8do8kg So take a spare snap link.


I am not concerned about brake pads wearing out because I check them
before each ride. Got a chain link in the tool kit as well and (so far)
I haven't had problems whacking a pretzeled chain apart to install it.
More of a concern are the tires. More than once did I have to walk home
because of an unfixable kablouie. The kind where the resulting gaping
hole is too large to stuff.

Back in the day I used to always carry a spare tire on my road bike.
Then one day I had two flats and started carrying two spares. I've
even carried three on one or two rides.

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 22:09:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/17/2017 3:46 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-04-17 11:46, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/17/2017 10:35 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-04-17 01:28, John B Slocomb wrote:

Funny. Monday is my wife's "shopping day" and we usually visit several
very large stores. The first place that sells a very broad range of
stuff from fresh chicken to PVC plumbing pipe had bicycle rim brake
pads. The second place was Tesco Lotus (ask a Brit about Tesco) and
they had rim brake pads and finally a sort of copy-cat of Tesco named
"Big C" and Lo! They had brake pads also. By the way, the first place
had your cheap Thai made tires for 129 baht each, about $3.76 at
today's exchange rate.


Ah, in Thailand. That's a very different place compared to here.

Copenhagen and Amsterdam are also very different places compared to
here. Yet you claim their bike facilities are what we need, and you
pretend the other differences (density, auto-related costs, mass transit
availability, etc. etc.) are unimportant.


No, I said that we can increase the mode share if we copy some of their
ideas. That fact has been proven time and again, in the US. See
Manhattan, see Folsom, see Portland, et cetera.

I do not subscribe to your philosophy of throwing in the towel just
because we can't reach two-digit mode share numbers like Europeans can.


A place where people still service their own vehicles like they did
here in the good old days. I suspect the key reason why you can hardly
find brake pads in stores other than (some) bike shops is that most
people in the US would buy a new $199 bicycle at the department store
and ride it maybe five miles, realize that now all sorts of muscles
ache, and then it sits in the garage until some yard sale 10 years
later. Servicing such a bike? Not gonna happen.

Yet you like to pretend that if a bike path is built nearby, those same
people will stop using their car.


Some of them will. I don't pretend. I know.

The question is, how much in infrastructure investment is a human life
worth? I don't just mean the guy that didn't get smashed by a car from
behind but mostly the reduction in serious or life-threatening medical
conditions that result from sedentary lifestyles and obesity.

Eventually this develops into a snowball. I personally talked to people
who bought a home in Folsom and the main reason not to look anywhere
else was the bike path system. Usually older people who abhor having to
mix in with automotive traffic and want to be able to cycle from their
homes to town without having to worry about cars. In Folsom they can. In
neighboring communities they cannot. Many if not most of those are what
we call "Bay Area transplants". People who had high-paying tech jobs in
the Silicon Valley, retired, wanted to get the heck out of there and
sold their $1M+ home down there to buy a $350-500k home here. Such
people with substantial disposable income and lots of windfall cash from
selling their old home are highly desired as new residents in towns and
cities up here. The best thing that can happen is that they cycle to
some fancy restaurant every other night, as many of them do.

As with the article whitewashing the failed Milton Keynes plan, you
justify your mission by saying some tiny increase in mode share
justifies huge expense. You say "some" will ride. You say "many" ride
to fancy restaurants every other night because of bike trails. But you
don't quantify.

You're perilously close to the argument that claims "Well, if ONE life
can be saved, any expense is worth it!"

I suggest that a special lanes for bicycles in any country isn't
going to have any effect at all on a significant percent of the
population.

Here I think that the numbers using a bicycle purely for
transportation is probably higher than in the U.S. but as the older
folk die off bicycles used as transportation become fewer and fewer.

What the more modern people do, a girl, collage grad., works in my
bank, unmarried, does, is call a "motorcycle taxi" to take her to work
- less than 1 Km. from where she lives.

Next time I'm in the bank I'll ask here about a bicycle but I know
what she'll do. She'll laugh and shake her head. She wears a sort of
company uniform, skirt and jacket in company colors with a white
blouse. and she wouldn't want to get all sweaty and frousled on the
way to work, would she?

On the other hand, I see quite a few folks in their tight shorts and
bright colored jerseys during my Sunday rides but it is very
noticeable that if it rains the numbers decrease nearly to the
vanishing point.

In my own mind the numbers of cyclists is more dependent on the number
of "strange folks" that reckon they ought to get out and get fit
rather than any number of bike facilities. Back when I ran it was very
much the same. Every event you would see the same faces with hardly a
stranger in the crowd.

My own guess is that if, today, X percent of the town/city population
bicycles to work that adding expensive bike paths will increase the
numbers by some relatively small amount for a short period (IT'S NEW,
LETS RIDE A BIKE), and then the numbers will fall back to the hard
core cyclists that always did ride to work.

I mean, "Good Lord, it is raining out there. You want to get your hair
all wet". "My goodness it looks like it will be a hot one today.
Better take the car and have air conditioning".

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 22:09:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/17/2017 3:46 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-04-17 11:46, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/17/2017 10:35 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-04-17 01:28, John B Slocomb wrote:

Funny. Monday is my wife's "shopping day" and we usually visit several
very large stores. The first place that sells a very broad range of
stuff from fresh chicken to PVC plumbing pipe had bicycle rim brake
pads. The second place was Tesco Lotus (ask a Brit about Tesco) and
they had rim brake pads and finally a sort of copy-cat of Tesco named
"Big C" and Lo! They had brake pads also. By the way, the first place
had your cheap Thai made tires for 129 baht each, about $3.76 at
today's exchange rate.


Ah, in Thailand. That's a very different place compared to here.

Copenhagen and Amsterdam are also very different places compared to
here. Yet you claim their bike facilities are what we need, and you
pretend the other differences (density, auto-related costs, mass transit
availability, etc. etc.) are unimportant.


No, I said that we can increase the mode share if we copy some of their
ideas. That fact has been proven time and again, in the US. See
Manhattan, see Folsom, see Portland, et cetera.

I do not subscribe to your philosophy of throwing in the towel just
because we can't reach two-digit mode share numbers like Europeans can.


A place where people still service their own vehicles like they did
here in the good old days. I suspect the key reason why you can hardly
find brake pads in stores other than (some) bike shops is that most
people in the US would buy a new $199 bicycle at the department store
and ride it maybe five miles, realize that now all sorts of muscles
ache, and then it sits in the garage until some yard sale 10 years
later. Servicing such a bike? Not gonna happen.

Yet you like to pretend that if a bike path is built nearby, those same
people will stop using their car.


Some of them will. I don't pretend. I know.

The question is, how much in infrastructure investment is a human life
worth? I don't just mean the guy that didn't get smashed by a car from
behind but mostly the reduction in serious or life-threatening medical
conditions that result from sedentary lifestyles and obesity.

Eventually this develops into a snowball. I personally talked to people
who bought a home in Folsom and the main reason not to look anywhere
else was the bike path system. Usually older people who abhor having to
mix in with automotive traffic and want to be able to cycle from their
homes to town without having to worry about cars. In Folsom they can. In
neighboring communities they cannot. Many if not most of those are what
we call "Bay Area transplants". People who had high-paying tech jobs in
the Silicon Valley, retired, wanted to get the heck out of there and
sold their $1M+ home down there to buy a $350-500k home here. Such
people with substantial disposable income and lots of windfall cash from
selling their old home are highly desired as new residents in towns and
cities up here. The best thing that can happen is that they cycle to
some fancy restaurant every other night, as many of them do.

As with the article whitewashing the failed Milton Keynes plan, you
justify your mission by saying some tiny increase in mode share
justifies huge expense. You say "some" will ride. You say "many" ride
to fancy restaurants every other night because of bike trails. But you
don't quantify.

You're perilously close to the argument that claims "Well, if ONE life
can be saved, any expense is worth it!"

I suggest that a special lanes for bicycles in any country isn't
going to have any effect at all on a significant percent of the
population.

Here I think that the numbers using a bicycle purely for
transportation is probably higher than in the U.S. but as the older
folk die off bicycles used as transportation become fewer and fewer.

What the more modern people do, a girl, collage grad., works in my
bank, unmarried, does, is call a "motorcycle taxi" to take her to work
- less than 1 Km. from where she lives.

Next time I'm in the bank I'll ask here about a bicycle but I know
what she'll do. She'll laugh and shake her head. She wears a sort of
company uniform, skirt and jacket in company colors with a white
blouse. and she wouldn't want to get all sweaty and frousled on the
way to work, would she?

On the other hand, I see quite a few folks in their tight shorts and
bright colored jerseys during my Sunday rides but it is very
noticeable that if it rains the numbers decrease nearly to the
vanishing point.

In my own mind the numbers of cyclists is more dependent on the number
of "strange folks" that reckon they ought to get out and get fit
rather than any number of bike facilities. Back when I ran it was very
much the same. Every event you would see the same faces with hardly a
stranger in the crowd.

My own guess is that if, today, X percent of the town/city population
bicycles to work that adding expensive bike paths will increase the
numbers by some relatively small amount for a short period (IT'S NEW,
LETS RIDE A BIKE), and then the numbers will fall back to the hard
core cyclists that always did ride to work.

I mean, "Good Lord, it is raining out there. You want to get your hair
all wet". "My goodness it looks like it will be a hot one today.
Better take the car and have air conditioning".

On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 7:57:06 AM UTC-4, John B Slocomb wrote:
Snipped
I suggest that a special lanes for bicycles in any country isn't
going to have any effect at all on a significant percent of the
population.

Snipped

I've talked to many people about why they don't use their bicycle on the roads or why they don't bicycle at all. They have more excuses to not ride than Carter's has little liver pills.

The problem with bicycle lanes of any sort is getting the people to them in the first place. Far too many bicycle lanes do NOT connect to where a bicyclists starts out from. We see that with the rial-trail facilities where people drive to them with their bikes on a vehicle and then they ride the trails. Then you need to have the bicycle lane go somewhere useful. That's not to mention the number of bicycle lanes that are so poorly designed that they present more of a hazard to bicyclists than what he open road does. Finally there isthe perception that many have that bicycling on a road with motor vehicles is plain playing Russian Roulette = VERY DANGEROUS.

Personanlly I don't care much for bicycle lanes for many of the reasons above.

Cheers

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 11:29:54 PM UTC-4, John B Slocomb wrote:
Snipped
Back in the day I used to always carry a spare tire on my road bike.
Then one day I had two flats and started carrying two spares. I've
even carried three on one or two rides.

Oh man that brings back memories of the day in the early 1980s when I punctured both tubular tires on my bike at the same time. I ended up buying some vinyl electric tape at a variety store and wrapping the tire with it. I was able to pump the tire enough to ride a kilometer or so and then pump it again and ride another kilometer or so and so on. A removable valve stem and a tube of tire sealant would have been EXTREMELY welcomed that day.

Cheers

On 4/18/2017 8:22 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 7:57:06 AM UTC-4, John B Slocomb wrote:
Snipped
I suggest that a special lanes for bicycles in any country isn't
going to have any effect at all on a significant percent of the
population.

Snipped

I've talked to many people about why they don't use their bicycle on the roads or why they don't bicycle at all. They have more excuses to not ride than Carter's has little liver pills.

The problem with bicycle lanes of any sort is getting the people to them in the first place. Far too many bicycle lanes do NOT connect to where a bicyclists starts out from. We see that with the rial-trail facilities where people drive to them with their bikes on a vehicle and then they ride the trails. Then you need to have the bicycle lane go somewhere useful. That's not to mention the number of bicycle lanes that are so poorly designed that they present more of a hazard to bicyclists than what he open road does. Finally there isthe perception that many have that bicycling on a road with motor vehicles is plain playing Russian Roulette = VERY DANGEROUS.

Personanlly I don't care much for bicycle lanes for many of the reasons above.

Cheers


I've written this here before. People who ride ride and you
can't stop us. People who don't don't and you can't make them.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971