10 sp KMC Shimano compatible chain connector question

I have a new 10 speed shimano 12-27 cassette and KMC chain on a brand new
Specialized Roubaix Expert Double (stands for double chain ring). I would
think about taking the bike back to the LBS where I bought this bike, but I
am worrried that the techs there won't really know what to do, or tell me
that my problem is the limitation of the 10 spd cassette system, because
they won't know how to solve the problem, so before I go back to them, I
would like to either try to fix the problems myself or at least know what to
say that they might consider to solve the problem.

I have two problems:
1) When the KMC chain connector just begins to engage the smallest cog
(12t) on the cassette, it gets temporarily hung up by slightly rubbing on
the side of a second cog tooth. The snap-link pin seems slightly too wide
to smoothly fit between the first and second cog, and it is thus prevented
from falling onto the arrriving tooth of the cassette. The snap-link pin
seems slightly longer than the fixed pins on the remainder of the chain
because the only place that the chain holds up is at the snap-link. As the
cassette further turns and the pressure on the chain to descend over the
tooth on the first cog gets greater, the chain finally clunks down over the
tooth and continues around the cassette, disengaging without any visible
problems. This results in a repetitive clunking at high speeds that sounds
terrible and is annoying. I have tried to slightly sand down the sharp edge
of the pin top on the link so that it might slide more easily onto the tooth
but it still holds up. Reversing the links does not change the problem. (I
was hoping one of the two links might have been slightly out of spec.)
Also, when backpedaling, the same problem occurs when the chain engages the
tooth at the top of the cassette as it moves counterclockwise. I could try
filing the top of the pin down but that looks risky as it seems it will
weaken the connection.

Is this a problem with a (?mismanufacturered) KMC link, or other some
other problem?

2) On the the biggest cog (27t) the derailleur pulley rings are too
close to the teeth of the cog causing a rumbling as the pulley rings and the
cassette rings slightly exert pressure on each other through the chain as it
runs between the two. I examined removing one chain link to "pull-down" the
pulley wheel away from the cassette but that would result in the derailleur
spring being stretched beyond its furthest extension.

Any ideas on this one other than getting a 12-25 cassette or 11-23?

KnowWhen2HoldemKnowWhen2Foldem wrote:
I have a new 10 speed shimano 12-27 cassette and KMC chain on a brand new
Specialized Roubaix Expert Double (stands for double chain ring).

I have two problems:
1) When the KMC chain connector just begins to engage the smallest cog
(12t) on the cassette, it gets temporarily hung up by slightly rubbing on
the side of a second cog tooth. The snap-link pin seems slightly too wide
to smoothly fit between the first and second cog, and it is thus prevented
from falling onto the arrriving tooth of the cassette. The snap-link pin
seems slightly longer than the fixed pins on the remainder of the chain
because the only place that the chain holds up is at the snap-link. As the
cassette further turns and the pressure on the chain to descend over the
tooth on the first cog gets greater, the chain finally clunks down over the
tooth and continues around the cassette, disengaging without any visible
problems. This results in a repetitive clunking at high speeds that sounds
terrible and is annoying. I have tried to slightly sand down the sharp edge
of the pin top on the link so that it might slide more easily onto the tooth
but it still holds up. Reversing the links does not change the problem. (I
was hoping one of the two links might have been slightly out of spec.)
Also, when backpedaling, the same problem occurs when the chain engages the
tooth at the top of the cassette as it moves counterclockwise. I could try
filing the top of the pin down but that looks risky as it seems it will
weaken the connection.

Is this a problem with a (?mismanufacturered) KMC link, or other some
other problem?

I just installed a new KMC 10 speed chain (with Missing Link) on my
Ultegra equipped bike and don't have the problem you describe, but I've
only got about 100 miles on the new chain so far. Can you precisely
measure the length of the pin in the Missing Link and compare it to the
others?

Also, are the symptoms different when the chain is on the small or
large chain ring in front?

2) On the the biggest cog (27t) the derailleur pulley rings are too
close to the teeth of the cog causing a rumbling as the pulley rings and the
cassette rings slightly exert pressure on each other through the chain as it
runs between the two. I examined removing one chain link to "pull-down" the
pulley wheel away from the cassette but that would result in the derailleur
spring being stretched beyond its furthest extension.

Any ideas on this one other than getting a 12-25 cassette or 11-23?

Tighten the B-Tension screw a turn or four. See
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/derailer....html#btension
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=64

Interesting. Thanks for the pointers.

What I discovered with the first problem is that the the high gear limit
stop, which looked perfectly aligned with the smallest cog (12t) when the
shifter was in the highest position, was just slightly restricting the chain
from fully seating on the smallest cog. I adjusted it so it looks like it
is slightly farther extended out laterally, past the centerline of the
cog/pulley alignment, and the chain now seats properly without machinery
noise and clicking. Very subtle. There are absolutely no tolerances with
the 10 speed chains and cassettes.

The second problem is barely solved, and really not to my satisfaction since
there is still a slight knocking of the pulley gears against the cog on the
highest cog (27t) with the B screw tightened all the way down. The rear
derailleur is DA so this shouldn't be the case. I may try to get a longer B
screw. Are there such things?

Thanks again for your help.

wrote in message
oups.com...
KnowWhen2HoldemKnowWhen2Foldem wrote:
I have a new 10 speed shimano 12-27 cassette and KMC chain on a brand new
Specialized Roubaix Expert Double (stands for double chain ring).

I have two problems:
1) When the KMC chain connector just begins to engage the smallest
cog
(12t) on the cassette, it gets temporarily hung up by slightly rubbing on
the side of a second cog tooth. The snap-link pin seems slightly too
wide
to smoothly fit between the first and second cog, and it is thus
prevented
from falling onto the arrriving tooth of the cassette. The snap-link
pin
seems slightly longer than the fixed pins on the remainder of the chain
because the only place that the chain holds up is at the snap-link. As
the
cassette further turns and the pressure on the chain to descend over the
tooth on the first cog gets greater, the chain finally clunks down over
the
tooth and continues around the cassette, disengaging without any visible
problems. This results in a repetitive clunking at high speeds that
sounds
terrible and is annoying. I have tried to slightly sand down the sharp
edge
of the pin top on the link so that it might slide more easily onto the
tooth
but it still holds up. Reversing the links does not change the problem.
(I
was hoping one of the two links might have been slightly out of spec.)
Also, when backpedaling, the same problem occurs when the chain engages
the
tooth at the top of the cassette as it moves counterclockwise. I could
try
filing the top of the pin down but that looks risky as it seems it will
weaken the connection.

Is this a problem with a (?mismanufacturered) KMC link, or other some
other problem?

I just installed a new KMC 10 speed chain (with Missing Link) on my
Ultegra equipped bike and don't have the problem you describe, but I've
only got about 100 miles on the new chain so far. Can you precisely
measure the length of the pin in the Missing Link and compare it to the
others?

Also, are the symptoms different when the chain is on the small or
large chain ring in front?

2) On the the biggest cog (27t) the derailleur pulley rings are too
close to the teeth of the cog causing a rumbling as the pulley rings and
the
cassette rings slightly exert pressure on each other through the chain as
it
runs between the two. I examined removing one chain link to "pull-down"
the
pulley wheel away from the cassette but that would result in the
derailleur
spring being stretched beyond its furthest extension.

Any ideas on this one other than getting a 12-25 cassette or 11-23?

Tighten the B-Tension screw a turn or four. See
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/derailer....html#btension
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=64

I actually do like the quick connector. I clean my chain on my bike but
then remove it and thoroughly wash it in water to flush out all the grit
before I put it back in the back. I then oil it twice. Each time I use SP9
based oils and let them seep in overnight. After the first oiling I wipe
down the chain on the bike and then reoil, repeating the procedure as above.
After the second wipe down the chain has a protective but relatively dry
feel so that it seems to pick up less dirt and grit yet doesn't squeak.

Regarding problem #2, please see my reply to Dianne_1234 above. Thanks for
taking the time to help.


"landotter" wrote in message
oups.com...
B screw for the second problem most definitely.

To solve the first problem I'd take it back to the shop. Sounds like a
crummy chain. They should either replace it or dispense with the quick
connector, removing it with a chain tool. You don't need a quick link,
unless you're a fan of cleaning the chain off the bike,

I use an on-bike gizmo to clean, but have you ever tried to clean and
lube derailleur pulleys with the chain still on?

landotter wrote:
B screw for the second problem most definitely.

To solve the first problem I'd take it back to the shop. Sounds like a
crummy chain. They should either replace it or dispense with the quick
connector, removing it with a chain tool. You don't need a quick link,
unless you're a fan of cleaning the chain off the bike,

hi,
problem 2....
i know its a pain but you might have cut the chain a couple of links too
short which is pulling the deraileur forwards hence rotating it upwards
towards the sprockets.sometimes adjusting the b-tension screw wont help if
theres too much `tension` in the deraileur.
Tango

KnowWhen2HoldemKnowWhen2Foldem wrote:
What I discovered with the first problem is that the the high gear limit
stop, which looked perfectly aligned with the smallest cog (12t) when the
shifter was in the highest position, was just slightly restricting the chain
from fully seating on the smallest cog. I adjusted it so it looks like it
is slightly farther extended out laterally, past the centerline of the
cog/pulley alignment, and the chain now seats properly without machinery
noise and clicking. Very subtle. There are absolutely no tolerances with
the 10 speed chains and cassettes.

Yes! Great find. I should have thought of that. :-) Glad it's solved
(for now...?)

The second problem is barely solved, and really not to my satisfaction since
there is still a slight knocking of the pulley gears against the cog on the
highest cog (27t) with the B screw tightened all the way down. The rear
derailleur is DA so this shouldn't be the case. I may try to get a longer B
screw. Are there such things?

Yes, try a bike shop that has a selection of junk Shimano derailleurs.
Some models had various length B-tension screws you might be able to
scavenge, and I'd be surprised if a longer one didn't solve the
problem.

But first confirm your chain length is okay. See the service
instructions for your rear derailleur:
http://bike.shimano.com/media/cyclin...9830563513.pdf
Basically, loop the chain around the biggest chainring and biggest cog
(skip the derailleur cage for now). Pull it tight and add two links (1
inch), then thread the chain as usual (include the rear derailleur this
time of course) and join.

KnowWhen2HoldemKnowWhen2Foldem wrote:
I have a new 10 speed shimano 12-27 cassette and KMC chain on a brand new
Specialized Roubaix Expert Double (stands for double chain ring).
I have two problems:
1) When the KMC chain connector just begins to engage the smallest cog
(12t) on the cassette, it gets temporarily hung up by slightly rubbing on
the side of a second cog tooth. The snap-link pin seems slightly too wide
to smoothly fit between the first and second cog, and it is thus prevented
from falling onto the arrriving tooth of the cassette.
-snip-
Is this a problem with a (?mismanufacturered) KMC link, or other some
other problem?

wrote:
I just installed a new KMC 10 speed chain (with Missing Link) on my
Ultegra equipped bike and don't have the problem you describe, but I've
only got about 100 miles on the new chain so far. Can you precisely
measure the length of the pin in the Missing Link and compare it to the
others?
Also, are the symptoms different when the chain is on the small or
large chain ring in front?

KnowWhen2HoldemKnowWhen2Foldem wrote:
2) On the the biggest cog (27t) the derailleur pulley rings are too
close to the teeth of the cog causing a rumbling as the pulley rings and the
cassette rings slightly exert pressure on each other through the chain as it
runs between the two. I examined removing one chain link to "pull-down" the
pulley wheel away from the cassette but that would result in the derailleur
spring being stretched beyond its furthest extension.
Any ideas on this one other than getting a 12-25 cassette or 11-23?

wrote:
Tighten the B-Tension screw a turn or four. See
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/derailer....html#btension
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=64

We use a lot of that chain - it is our preferred chain for
Campagnolo new bike builds - and haven't seen that problem.
I'm with Dianne - check to ensure you have the proper link.

My mechanic says we once received a box of KMC Ten that
shipped with gold 9speed links. That gold link is marked
only "KMC". KMC Ten links are silver and variously marked
CL562R and CL563R.

I'm also with Dianne on that "B" screw adjustment. Then get
your head behind the rear changer to ensure the changer is
vertical, parallel to the chainrings.

Lastly, you mention 'adjusting' the chain length. Ensure the
big-big is attainable before riding.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 21:37:14 -0400, "KnowWhen2HoldemKnowWhen2Foldem"
wrote:

I have a new 10 speed shimano 12-27 cassette and KMC chain on a brand new
Specialized Roubaix Expert Double (stands for double chain ring). I would
think about taking the bike back to the LBS where I bought this bike, but I
am worrried that the techs there won't really know what to do, or tell me
that my problem is the limitation of the 10 spd cassette system, because
they won't know how to solve the problem, so before I go back to them, I
would like to either try to fix the problems myself or at least know what to
say that they might consider to solve the problem.

I have two problems:
1) When the KMC chain connector just begins to engage the smallest cog
(12t) on the cassette, it gets temporarily hung up by slightly rubbing on
the side of a second cog tooth. The snap-link pin seems slightly too wide
to smoothly fit between the first and second cog, and it is thus prevented
from falling onto the arrriving tooth of the cassette. The snap-link pin
seems slightly longer than the fixed pins on the remainder of the chain
because the only place that the chain holds up is at the snap-link. As the
cassette further turns and the pressure on the chain to descend over the
tooth on the first cog gets greater, the chain finally clunks down over the
tooth and continues around the cassette, disengaging without any visible
problems. This results in a repetitive clunking at high speeds that sounds
terrible and is annoying. I have tried to slightly sand down the sharp edge
of the pin top on the link so that it might slide more easily onto the tooth
but it still holds up. Reversing the links does not change the problem. (I
was hoping one of the two links might have been slightly out of spec.)
Also, when backpedaling, the same problem occurs when the chain engages the
tooth at the top of the cassette as it moves counterclockwise. I could try
filing the top of the pin down but that looks risky as it seems it will
weaken the connection.

Is this a problem with a (?mismanufacturered) KMC link, or other some
other problem?

It may be the wrong link. A 9s or 8s link will connect a 10s chain
happily, but may produce exactly the misbehavior you describe. I'd
swap out o the SRAM Gold connector (which is technically for 9s chains
but seems o work OK most of the time on 10s setups) or the Wippermann
Connex that's explicitly made for 10s.

2) On the the biggest cog (27t) the derailleur pulley rings are too
close to the teeth of the cog causing a rumbling as the pulley rings and the
cassette rings slightly exert pressure on each other through the chain as it
runs between the two. I examined removing one chain link to "pull-down" the
pulley wheel away from the cassette but that would result in the derailleur
spring being stretched beyond its furthest extension.

Any ideas on this one other than getting a 12-25 cassette or 11-23?

I'd try adding one full link to the chain. It sounds like the chain
was cut a bit short. Unfortunately, that will require two snaplinks
unless you want to risk pushing a pin back in; on a 10s, that can be a
particularly questionable practice.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

richard wrote:
I use an on-bike gizmo to clean, but have you ever tried to clean and
lube derailleur pulleys with the chain still on?


Mine never get that dirty, so cleaning them on-bike is no big deal, a
few seconds with a shop rag usually does the jockey wheels. Reminds me
though, I really should pick up a set of the fancy ones with cart
bearings instead of a bushing. It would probably make my Tiagra rear
feel a bit nicer.

I'm now a convert to mineral spirits + quality motor oil for cleaning &
lubing at the same time. Amazing how well it works, you just have to
wipe the chain absolutely dry and let the spirits dry overnight. Might
not be the best or worst lube, just amazingly clean and fast. I always
thought motor oil = mess, but didn't think to put it in a suspension.