The Four Horsemen

Phil W Lee writes:

Radey Shouman considered Thu, 21 Nov 2013
11:07:05 -0500 the perfect time to write:

Frank Krygowski writes:

On Wednesday, November 20, 2013 10:09:42 PM UTC-5, David Scheidt wrote:
John B. wrote:

:You keep harping on "large plate" but the example I mentioned
:certainly does not show a large plate... In fact the drawing only
:shows two edges of the "plate" and the label states "steel plate with
:suitable drilled hole". I've certainly seen early American blacksmith
:made hardware of sufficient size that one could have made a treenail
:die out of it.

of steel?

Would it need to be steel? You're talking about quickly stripping a
piece of (probably) square wood into something round, with no very
precise tolerances. Might wrought iron not work perfectly well?

Yes. Treenails were made of the hardest conveniently available wood,
black locust being favored. Wrought iron is not suitable for cutting
wood.

Yet strangely, bronze axes were used for felling trees - an operation
which would benefit far more from a hardened edge.
Just about any metal harder than lead would be capable of stripping
wood along the grain.

Maybe they used holes drilled in obsidian plates, I don't know.

--

John B. writes:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 03:09:42 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

John B. wrote:

:You keep harping on "large plate" but the example I mentioned
:certainly does not show a large plate... In fact the drawing only
:shows two edges of the "plate" and the label states "steel plate with
:suitable drilled hole". I've certainly seen early American blacksmith
:made hardware of sufficient size that one could have made a treenail
:die out of it.

of steel?

Certainly. "Case Hardening" has been known nearly as long as man has
forged iron... and case hardening converts a portion of the iron to
steel, and would serve perfectly well for the purpose of a treenail
die.

Really? How many case-hardened cutting tool applications have you run
into in your years as a metal worker?

:And why do you denigrate a tool to make treenails? After all, given
:that thousands of them would have been used to build a ship it would
:seem like a fairly important tool for the shipwright's tool box.

:As for iron/steel use in the "old days", the Vikings, in the 8th - 9th
:century, used as much as a 1,500 lbs of iron nails to build a "long
:ship".

Iron is not steel. Those nails were not steel.

Petty. But so what. I was demonstrating that iron or steel was used
very early on.

Silly. You ignore the point that steel was once considerably more
expensive than iron, which was much more expensive, relatively, that it
is today. Steel is no longer more expensive than iron, and for that
reason there is very little remaining use of wrought iron, and little
enough of cast iron. Try to find an iron nail today, outside of a
museum.


--

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 16:01:11 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 03:09:42 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

John B. wrote:

:You keep harping on "large plate" but the example I mentioned
:certainly does not show a large plate... In fact the drawing only
:shows two edges of the "plate" and the label states "steel plate with
:suitable drilled hole". I've certainly seen early American blacksmith
:made hardware of sufficient size that one could have made a treenail
:die out of it.

of steel?

Certainly. "Case Hardening" has been known nearly as long as man has
forged iron... and case hardening converts a portion of the iron to
steel, and would serve perfectly well for the purpose of a treenail
die.

Really? How many case-hardened cutting tool applications have you run
into in your years as a metal worker?

Probably surprising (to you) but I've seen a number. Usually used to
make one off tools where it wasn't economical to take the time to
grind a HHS tool. At Edwards AFB in the mid 1960's I actually made one
to bore an O-ring recess in an experimental rocket motor.

See
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...prod27119.aspx
or
http://www.rosemill.com/category_s/46.htm
for availability of materials

:And why do you denigrate a tool to make treenails? After all, given
:that thousands of them would have been used to build a ship it would
:seem like a fairly important tool for the shipwright's tool box.

:As for iron/steel use in the "old days", the Vikings, in the 8th - 9th
:century, used as much as a 1,500 lbs of iron nails to build a "long
:ship".

Iron is not steel. Those nails were not steel.

Petty. But so what. I was demonstrating that iron or steel was used
very early on.

Silly. You ignore the point that steel was once considerably more
expensive than iron, which was much more expensive, relatively, that it
is today. Steel is no longer more expensive than iron, and for that
reason there is very little remaining use of wrought iron, and little
enough of cast iron. Try to find an iron nail today, outside of a
museum.

No I'm not ignoring that steel was more difficult to obtain than
wrought iron. But it was obtainable and had been for centuries. An
Arab writer who lived from 973 -1050 described three methods of making
steel and the cementation method was available to any blacksmith that
wanted to expend the time to "cook" it. Homer, who probably lived
about 850 B.C. mentions "bright Iron" in his writings

Flintlock rifles and muskets were made in America, an estimated 80,000
American made muskets were used in the revolutionary war and every one
of them required steel both for the "frizzen" and the two action
springs.

Your argument that steel wasn't used because there was no mass
production available to make it is simply foolishness. In the 1960's I
knew a boat builder who was 81 years old then, He had tools - several
wooden planes - that he had inherited from his father and grandfather.
In fact he was quite proud of them and said he always used them if he
was doing "fine work". They certainly didn't have iron blades.

--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. wrote:
:On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 20:31:52 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

:On Wednesday, November 20, 2013 10:09:42 PM UTC-5, David Scheidt wrote:
: John B. wrote:
:
: :You keep harping on "large plate" but the example I mentioned
: :certainly does not show a large plate... In fact the drawing only
: :shows two edges of the "plate" and the label states "steel plate with
: :suitable drilled hole". I've certainly seen early American blacksmith
: :made hardware of sufficient size that one could have made a treenail
: :die out of it.
:
: of steel?
:
:Would it need to be steel? You're talking about quickly stripping a piece of (probably) square wood into something round, with no very precise tolerances. Might wrought iron not work perfectly well?

See, that's wrong, at least for the treenails used on boats. First,
they're not round. Round treenails don't hold. They're octagonal,
because you can drive them into a hole of diameter about the distance
across flats, with the larger angle to angle dimension helping to hold
it in place.

And to do that accurately, you need to make the treenails accurately,
and driving them through a dowel plate wont' make an accurate octagon.
They need to match the holes you've bored, and the bit is a fixed
size.


(there's a bunch of interesting mid-19th century machinery to make
octagonal treenails. none that Iv'e read about involve dowel plates.)

--
sig 63

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 04:07:28 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

John B. wrote:
:On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 20:31:52 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

:On Wednesday, November 20, 2013 10:09:42 PM UTC-5, David Scheidt wrote:
: John B. wrote:
:
: :You keep harping on "large plate" but the example I mentioned
: :certainly does not show a large plate... In fact the drawing only
: :shows two edges of the "plate" and the label states "steel plate with
: :suitable drilled hole". I've certainly seen early American blacksmith
: :made hardware of sufficient size that one could have made a treenail
: :die out of it.
:
: of steel?
:
:Would it need to be steel? You're talking about quickly stripping a piece of (probably) square wood into something round, with no very precise tolerances. Might wrought iron not work perfectly well?

See, that's wrong, at least for the treenails used on boats. First,
they're not round. Round treenails don't hold. They're octagonal,
because you can drive them into a hole of diameter about the distance
across flats, with the larger angle to angle dimension helping to hold
it in place.


Ahaa... I hate to remind you but one of your first comments about
treenails included a reference to a Dutch (I believe) boat builder and
included a video of the guy making a treenail.... with an electric
drill.


And to do that accurately, you need to make the treenails accurately,
and driving them through a dowel plate wont' make an accurate octagon.
They need to match the holes you've bored, and the bit is a fixed
size.


(there's a bunch of interesting mid-19th century machinery to make
octagonal treenails. none that Iv'e read about involve dowel plates.)
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. writes:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 16:01:11 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 03:09:42 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

John B. wrote:

:You keep harping on "large plate" but the example I mentioned
:certainly does not show a large plate... In fact the drawing only
:shows two edges of the "plate" and the label states "steel plate with
:suitable drilled hole". I've certainly seen early American blacksmith
:made hardware of sufficient size that one could have made a treenail
:die out of it.

of steel?

Certainly. "Case Hardening" has been known nearly as long as man has
forged iron... and case hardening converts a portion of the iron to
steel, and would serve perfectly well for the purpose of a treenail
die.

Really? How many case-hardened cutting tool applications have you run
into in your years as a metal worker?

Probably surprising (to you) but I've seen a number. Usually used to
make one off tools where it wasn't economical to take the time to
grind a HHS tool. At Edwards AFB in the mid 1960's I actually made one
to bore an O-ring recess in an experimental rocket motor.

I am a bit surprised, but this isn't a deposition, so that's not proof
of malpractice. The tool you describe sounds like it was probably used
once.

See
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...prod27119.aspx
or
http://www.rosemill.com/category_s/46.htm
for availability of materials

:And why do you denigrate a tool to make treenails? After all, given
:that thousands of them would have been used to build a ship it would
:seem like a fairly important tool for the shipwright's tool box.

:As for iron/steel use in the "old days", the Vikings, in the 8th - 9th
:century, used as much as a 1,500 lbs of iron nails to build a "long
:ship".

Iron is not steel. Those nails were not steel.

Petty. But so what. I was demonstrating that iron or steel was used
very early on.

Silly. You ignore the point that steel was once considerably more
expensive than iron, which was much more expensive, relatively, that it
is today. Steel is no longer more expensive than iron, and for that
reason there is very little remaining use of wrought iron, and little
enough of cast iron. Try to find an iron nail today, outside of a
museum.

No I'm not ignoring that steel was more difficult to obtain than
wrought iron. But it was obtainable and had been for centuries. An
Arab writer who lived from 973 -1050 described three methods of making
steel and the cementation method was available to any blacksmith that
wanted to expend the time to "cook" it. Homer, who probably lived
about 850 B.C. mentions "bright Iron" in his writings

Flintlock rifles and muskets were made in America, an estimated 80,000
American made muskets were used in the revolutionary war and every one
of them required steel both for the "frizzen" and the two action
springs.

Your argument that steel wasn't used because there was no mass
production available to make it is simply foolishness. In the 1960's I
knew a boat builder who was 81 years old then, He had tools - several
wooden planes - that he had inherited from his father and grandfather.
In fact he was quite proud of them and said he always used them if he
was doing "fine work". They certainly didn't have iron blades.

No one, least of all me, has ever argued that iron or steel have not
been available for quite a long time, nor that steel has not been the
choice for edged tools and springs ever since it has been available.

Metallic gold has been known to man even longer than iron, and is
described in many works of great antiquity. Should I then argue that it
*could* *have* been used for making fishing sinkers at any time in the
past?

--

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 18:20:21 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 16:01:11 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 03:09:42 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

John B. wrote:

:You keep harping on "large plate" but the example I mentioned
:certainly does not show a large plate... In fact the drawing only
:shows two edges of the "plate" and the label states "steel plate with
:suitable drilled hole". I've certainly seen early American blacksmith
:made hardware of sufficient size that one could have made a treenail
:die out of it.

of steel?

Certainly. "Case Hardening" has been known nearly as long as man has
forged iron... and case hardening converts a portion of the iron to
steel, and would serve perfectly well for the purpose of a treenail
die.

Really? How many case-hardened cutting tool applications have you run
into in your years as a metal worker?

Probably surprising (to you) but I've seen a number. Usually used to
make one off tools where it wasn't economical to take the time to
grind a HHS tool. At Edwards AFB in the mid 1960's I actually made one
to bore an O-ring recess in an experimental rocket motor.

I am a bit surprised, but this isn't a deposition, so that's not proof
of malpractice. The tool you describe sounds like it was probably used
once.

But that is exactly what I said, that I had seen casehardening used
"where it wasn't economical to take the time to grind a HHS tool". In
retrospect I probably have said "where it wasn't economical to take
the time to MAKE a HHS tool".


See
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...prod27119.aspx
or
http://www.rosemill.com/category_s/46.htm
for availability of materials

:And why do you denigrate a tool to make treenails? After all, given
:that thousands of them would have been used to build a ship it would
:seem like a fairly important tool for the shipwright's tool box.

:As for iron/steel use in the "old days", the Vikings, in the 8th - 9th
:century, used as much as a 1,500 lbs of iron nails to build a "long
:ship".

Iron is not steel. Those nails were not steel.

Petty. But so what. I was demonstrating that iron or steel was used
very early on.

Silly. You ignore the point that steel was once considerably more
expensive than iron, which was much more expensive, relatively, that it
is today. Steel is no longer more expensive than iron, and for that
reason there is very little remaining use of wrought iron, and little
enough of cast iron. Try to find an iron nail today, outside of a
museum.

No I'm not ignoring that steel was more difficult to obtain than
wrought iron. But it was obtainable and had been for centuries. An
Arab writer who lived from 973 -1050 described three methods of making
steel and the cementation method was available to any blacksmith that
wanted to expend the time to "cook" it. Homer, who probably lived
about 850 B.C. mentions "bright Iron" in his writings

Flintlock rifles and muskets were made in America, an estimated 80,000
American made muskets were used in the revolutionary war and every one
of them required steel both for the "frizzen" and the two action
springs.

Your argument that steel wasn't used because there was no mass
production available to make it is simply foolishness. In the 1960's I
knew a boat builder who was 81 years old then, He had tools - several
wooden planes - that he had inherited from his father and grandfather.
In fact he was quite proud of them and said he always used them if he
was doing "fine work". They certainly didn't have iron blades.

No one, least of all me, has ever argued that iron or steel have not
been available for quite a long time, nor that steel has not been the
choice for edged tools and springs ever since it has been available.


No. You argued that prior to the Bessemer process that steel was not
available in large quantities and therefore probably not used to make
a tool for making treenails.

Metallic gold has been known to man even longer than iron, and is
described in many works of great antiquity. Should I then argue that it
*could* *have* been used for making fishing sinkers at any time in the
past?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, November 22, 2013 6:20:21 PM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:

No one, least of all me, has ever argued that iron or steel have not
been available for quite a long time, nor that steel has not been the
choice for edged tools and springs ever since it has been available.

Since I haven't been paying diligent attention: Radey, how are you saying that treenails were manufactured in various periods in history?

- Frank Krygowski

John B. writes:

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 18:20:21 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 16:01:11 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 03:09:42 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

John B. wrote:

:You keep harping on "large plate" but the example I mentioned
:certainly does not show a large plate... In fact the drawing only
:shows two edges of the "plate" and the label states "steel plate with
:suitable drilled hole". I've certainly seen early American blacksmith
:made hardware of sufficient size that one could have made a treenail
:die out of it.

of steel?

Certainly. "Case Hardening" has been known nearly as long as man has
forged iron... and case hardening converts a portion of the iron to
steel, and would serve perfectly well for the purpose of a treenail
die.

Really? How many case-hardened cutting tool applications have you run
into in your years as a metal worker?

Probably surprising (to you) but I've seen a number. Usually used to
make one off tools where it wasn't economical to take the time to
grind a HHS tool. At Edwards AFB in the mid 1960's I actually made one
to bore an O-ring recess in an experimental rocket motor.

I am a bit surprised, but this isn't a deposition, so that's not proof
of malpractice. The tool you describe sounds like it was probably used
once.

But that is exactly what I said, that I had seen casehardening used
"where it wasn't economical to take the time to grind a HHS tool". In
retrospect I probably have said "where it wasn't economical to take
the time to MAKE a HHS tool".


See
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...prod27119.aspx
or
http://www.rosemill.com/category_s/46.htm
for availability of materials

:And why do you denigrate a tool to make treenails? After all, given
:that thousands of them would have been used to build a ship it would
:seem like a fairly important tool for the shipwright's tool box.

:As for iron/steel use in the "old days", the Vikings, in the 8th - 9th
:century, used as much as a 1,500 lbs of iron nails to build a "long
:ship".

Iron is not steel. Those nails were not steel.

Petty. But so what. I was demonstrating that iron or steel was used
very early on.

Silly. You ignore the point that steel was once considerably more
expensive than iron, which was much more expensive, relatively, that it
is today. Steel is no longer more expensive than iron, and for that
reason there is very little remaining use of wrought iron, and little
enough of cast iron. Try to find an iron nail today, outside of a
museum.

No I'm not ignoring that steel was more difficult to obtain than
wrought iron. But it was obtainable and had been for centuries. An
Arab writer who lived from 973 -1050 described three methods of making
steel and the cementation method was available to any blacksmith that
wanted to expend the time to "cook" it. Homer, who probably lived
about 850 B.C. mentions "bright Iron" in his writings

Flintlock rifles and muskets were made in America, an estimated 80,000
American made muskets were used in the revolutionary war and every one
of them required steel both for the "frizzen" and the two action
springs.

Your argument that steel wasn't used because there was no mass
production available to make it is simply foolishness. In the 1960's I
knew a boat builder who was 81 years old then, He had tools - several
wooden planes - that he had inherited from his father and grandfather.
In fact he was quite proud of them and said he always used them if he
was doing "fine work". They certainly didn't have iron blades.

No one, least of all me, has ever argued that iron or steel have not
been available for quite a long time, nor that steel has not been the
choice for edged tools and springs ever since it has been available.


No. You argued that prior to the Bessemer process that steel was not
available in large quantities and therefore probably not used to make
a tool for making treenails.

Prior to the Bessemer process steel was not available in anything like
the quantities used today. Do you dispute that? Was steel used for
building structures, tin cans, paper clips, bicycles?

Steel was almost certainly used for the tools used to make treenails,
but those tools did not include dowel plates, which require far too
much steel for their utility to have been practical.

Metallic gold has been known to man even longer than iron, and is
described in many works of great antiquity. Should I then argue that it
*could* *have* been used for making fishing sinkers at any time in the
past?

--

Frank Krygowski writes:

On Friday, November 22, 2013 6:20:21 PM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:

No one, least of all me, has ever argued that iron or steel have not
been available for quite a long time, nor that steel has not been the
choice for edged tools and springs ever since it has been available.

Since I haven't been paying diligent attention: Radey, how are you
saying that treenails were manufactured in various periods in history?

I don't know. But if I had to guess at a likely method during most of
the time that treenails were used I would say they were split from a
block of about the right length into approximate squares, and then
shaped into octagons or rounds using a drawknife.

It's entirely possible that steel dowel plates were used in at least one
instance, but I can't imagine that being practical before the price of
steel dropped (around 1870).

--