The Four Horsemen

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 10:45:24 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 18:50:58 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Sir Ridesalot writes:

On Friday, November 8, 2013 8:46:16 PM UTC-5, Dan wrote:
Rules of the Road.



This is of course a huge, sprawling topic, of utmost importance to many

(most) independent travelers; but my coverage here will be short.



The Rules of the Road greatly affect Situational Awareness, because it

*strongly* influences what other road users are *apt* to do. It does

not constrain what is possible, but it heavily drives probability. (The

SA rider still needs to pay attention - to get inside the head of others

and consider how "ruled" they are by the Rules.)



The Rules of the Road - in The United States of America, at least - are

almost entirely geared for automobile traffic, so they are often the

proverbial round hole for the square peg of a bicyclist. But wait! The

Rules of the Road (pretty much) *only* apply to the road, which it but a

very small part of the bicyclist's landscape :-)



Golly I guess that's about all I have to say about this (for now),

except that (and we'll get into this with the other closely related

Horseman, Social Interaction) certain unwritten fundamental rules are

always in effect.

I believe it was Quakers who when building wooden ships used square
pegs in round holes because that stopped the peg from twisting loose
in use. So, sometimes even a square peg in a round hole is useful.

Not just Quakers, surely. Treenails were standard practice. I have
read that the non-native black locust trees in my area were originally
introduced to provide treenail stock.

Here are some pictures and video:

http://www.boat-building.org/learn-s...ood/treenails/



Cheers

But Treenails are not square pegs in round holes nor were their use
restricted to Quakers :-)

In fact wooden pegs were commonly used in most kinds of wood working,
back in the day. My Granddad's barn was built (in the late 1700's)
with the posts and beams joined with mortise and tenon joints that
were pegged together with what might be called treenails.

Treenails have square heads, which are driven into the beam that is
being fastened. They are not simply round pegs, which are very much
still in used (I used a few last week).

Nope. Even the Wiki has pictures and a description of the use thereof.

But apply a little logic.... why in the world would one carve a peg
with a square head just to drive it into a timber and then cut the peg
off flush?
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. writes:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 10:43:49 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Frank Krygowski writes:

On Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:50:58 PM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
Sir Ridesalot writes:

I believe it was Quakers who when building wooden ships used square
pegs in round holes because that stopped the peg from twisting loose
in use. So, sometimes even a square peg in a round hole is useful.

Not just Quakers, surely. Treenails were standard practice. I have
read that the non-native black locust trees in my area were originally
introduced to provide treenail stock.

Here are some pictures and video:

http://www.boat-building.org/learn-s...ood/treenails/

Those certainly look round to me.

The head ends are left square, and the corners are driven into whatever
is being fastened. I would be amazed if Quakers or anyone else drove
full-length square pegs into round holes.

Why in the world would one want to leave a square head on a round peg.
Beside I don't think that you are envisioning just how treenails were
installed... The ends of the treenail were slotted and after driving
into place wedges were driven into the end of the treenail to lock it
in place.

Why would anyone put a flat head on a nail? So it doesn't go all the way
into the hole. The corners bite into the hole, keeping it in place
before wedges are driven into each end. After that the protruding ends
can be cut off.

I don't have to envision it, because I can watch the nice video of a guy
who apparently does it for a living:

http://www.boat-building.org/learn-s...ood/treenails/

It's really pretty entertaining.

--

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 20:21:09 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 10:43:49 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Frank Krygowski writes:

On Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:50:58 PM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
Sir Ridesalot writes:

I believe it was Quakers who when building wooden ships used square
pegs in round holes because that stopped the peg from twisting loose
in use. So, sometimes even a square peg in a round hole is useful.

Not just Quakers, surely. Treenails were standard practice. I have
read that the non-native black locust trees in my area were originally
introduced to provide treenail stock.

Here are some pictures and video:

http://www.boat-building.org/learn-s...ood/treenails/

Those certainly look round to me.

The head ends are left square, and the corners are driven into whatever
is being fastened. I would be amazed if Quakers or anyone else drove
full-length square pegs into round holes.

Why in the world would one want to leave a square head on a round peg.
Beside I don't think that you are envisioning just how treenails were
installed... The ends of the treenail were slotted and after driving
into place wedges were driven into the end of the treenail to lock it
in place.

Why would anyone put a flat head on a nail? So it doesn't go all the way
into the hole. The corners bite into the hole, keeping it in place
before wedges are driven into each end. After that the protruding ends
can be cut off.

I don't have to envision it, because I can watch the nice video of a guy
who apparently does it for a living:

http://www.boat-building.org/learn-s...ood/treenails/

It's really pretty entertaining.

All I can say that I've spent time examining the remains of schooners
built in the early 1900's, I spent quite a bit of time helping with
the rebuilding of a 60 ft. wooden fishing boat under the supervision
of a wooden boat builder that was born in 1890 and spent his life
building traditional Maine wooden boats, I've build a boat or two
myself, and I've never seen a treenail with a square head.

But if you've seen it in the movies then I'll bow to your superior
knowledge.
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. writes:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 20:21:09 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 10:43:49 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Frank Krygowski writes:

On Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:50:58 PM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
Sir Ridesalot writes:

I believe it was Quakers who when building wooden ships used square
pegs in round holes because that stopped the peg from twisting loose
in use. So, sometimes even a square peg in a round hole is useful.

Not just Quakers, surely. Treenails were standard practice. I have
read that the non-native black locust trees in my area were originally
introduced to provide treenail stock.

Here are some pictures and video:

http://www.boat-building.org/learn-s...ood/treenails/

Those certainly look round to me.

The head ends are left square, and the corners are driven into whatever
is being fastened. I would be amazed if Quakers or anyone else drove
full-length square pegs into round holes.

Why in the world would one want to leave a square head on a round peg.
Beside I don't think that you are envisioning just how treenails were
installed... The ends of the treenail were slotted and after driving
into place wedges were driven into the end of the treenail to lock it
in place.

Why would anyone put a flat head on a nail? So it doesn't go all the way
into the hole. The corners bite into the hole, keeping it in place
before wedges are driven into each end. After that the protruding ends
can be cut off.

I don't have to envision it, because I can watch the nice video of a guy
who apparently does it for a living:

http://www.boat-building.org/learn-s...ood/treenails/

It's really pretty entertaining.

All I can say that I've spent time examining the remains of schooners
built in the early 1900's, I spent quite a bit of time helping with
the rebuilding of a 60 ft. wooden fishing boat under the supervision
of a wooden boat builder that was born in 1890 and spent his life
building traditional Maine wooden boats, I've build a boat or two
myself, and I've never seen a treenail with a square head.

But if you've seen it in the movies then I'll bow to your superior
knowledge.

So you've installed treenails? How were they made? Did you make them?
It seems to me that the only straightforward ways of making round pins
out of wood start with squares, why wouldn't it be *easier* to leave a
square head on them?

I won't claim to have more experience than you, but those Dutch guys
have a much better presentation, so I'll believe them first.

--

John B. wrote:
:On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 20:21:09 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

:John B. writes:
:
: On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 10:43:49 -0500, Radey Shouman
: wrote:
:
:Frank Krygowski writes:
:
: On Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:50:58 PM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
: Sir Ridesalot writes:
:
: I believe it was Quakers who when building wooden ships used square
: pegs in round holes because that stopped the peg from twisting loose
: in use. So, sometimes even a square peg in a round hole is useful.
:
: Not just Quakers, surely. Treenails were standard practice. I have
: read that the non-native black locust trees in my area were originally
: introduced to provide treenail stock.
:
: Here are some pictures and video:
:
: http://www.boat-building.org/learn-s...ood/treenails/
:
: Those certainly look round to me.
:
:The head ends are left square, and the corners are driven into whatever
:is being fastened. I would be amazed if Quakers or anyone else drove
:full-length square pegs into round holes.
:
: Why in the world would one want to leave a square head on a round peg.
: Beside I don't think that you are envisioning just how treenails were
: installed... The ends of the treenail were slotted and after driving
: into place wedges were driven into the end of the treenail to lock it
: in place.
:
:Why would anyone put a flat head on a nail? So it doesn't go all the way
:into the hole. The corners bite into the hole, keeping it in place
:before wedges are driven into each end. After that the protruding ends
:can be cut off.
:
:I don't have to envision it, because I can watch the nice video of a guy
:who apparently does it for a living:
:
:http://www.boat-building.org/learn-s...ood/treenails/
:
:It's really pretty entertaining.

:All I can say that I've spent time examining the remains of schooners
:built in the early 1900's, I spent quite a bit of time helping with
:the rebuilding of a 60 ft. wooden fishing boat under the supervision
f a wooden boat builder that was born in 1890 and spent his life
:building traditional Maine wooden boats, I've build a boat or two
:myself, and I've never seen a treenail with a square head.

Before about 1820, no treenails were round. They were square, the
better grade hexaganal ("eight square"). The engine lathe made it
possible to make round treenails, which are markedly inferior. (So
much so that using round treenails increased the cost of insuring a
ship, or made it impossible to do so.) The advantage of a square or
hex treenail is that it will go into a hole rather smaller than the
treenail, which greatly increases the holding force it exerts. None
of these were expanded with wedges, which is a slip shod technique.

:But if you've seen it in the movies then I'll bow to your superior
:knowledge.

I wouldn't trust the twentieth century for knowing how to make things
with wood. the treenail as obsolete before then, and the reasons for
prefering one form over antoher are easily frogotten. There's plenty
of 18th and 19th century documentation about the subject.

--
sig 47

David Scheidt writes:

John B. wrote:
:On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 20:21:09 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

:John B. writes:
:
: On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 10:43:49 -0500, Radey Shouman
: wrote:
:
:Frank Krygowski writes:
:
: On Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:50:58 PM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
: Sir Ridesalot writes:
:
: I believe it was Quakers who when building wooden ships used square
: pegs in round holes because that stopped the peg from twisting loose
: in use. So, sometimes even a square peg in a round hole is useful.
:
: Not just Quakers, surely. Treenails were standard practice. I have
: read that the non-native black locust trees in my area were originally
: introduced to provide treenail stock.
:
: Here are some pictures and video:
:
: http://www.boat-building.org/learn-s...ood/treenails/
:
: Those certainly look round to me.
:
:The head ends are left square, and the corners are driven into whatever
:is being fastened. I would be amazed if Quakers or anyone else drove
:full-length square pegs into round holes.
:
: Why in the world would one want to leave a square head on a round peg.
: Beside I don't think that you are envisioning just how treenails were
: installed... The ends of the treenail were slotted and after driving
: into place wedges were driven into the end of the treenail to lock it
: in place.
:
:Why would anyone put a flat head on a nail? So it doesn't go all the way
:into the hole. The corners bite into the hole, keeping it in place
:before wedges are driven into each end. After that the protruding ends
:can be cut off.
:
:I don't have to envision it, because I can watch the nice video of a guy
:who apparently does it for a living:
:
:http://www.boat-building.org/learn-s...ood/treenails/
:
:It's really pretty entertaining.

:All I can say that I've spent time examining the remains of schooners
:built in the early 1900's, I spent quite a bit of time helping with
:the rebuilding of a 60 ft. wooden fishing boat under the supervision
f a wooden boat builder that was born in 1890 and spent his life
:building traditional Maine wooden boats, I've build a boat or two
:myself, and I've never seen a treenail with a square head.

Before about 1820, no treenails were round. They were square, the
better grade hexaganal ("eight square"). The engine lathe made it

Surely "eight square" is octagonal, not hexagonal. It's easy to
knock the edges off a square with a drawknife or similar, considerably
harder to make a hexagonal cross section.

possible to make round treenails, which are markedly inferior. (So
much so that using round treenails increased the cost of insuring a
ship, or made it impossible to do so.) The advantage of a square or
hex treenail is that it will go into a hole rather smaller than the
treenail, which greatly increases the holding force it exerts. None
of these were expanded with wedges, which is a slip shod technique.

:But if you've seen it in the movies then I'll bow to your superior
:knowledge.

I wouldn't trust the twentieth century for knowing how to make things
with wood. the treenail as obsolete before then, and the reasons for
prefering one form over antoher are easily frogotten. There's plenty
of 18th and 19th century documentation about the subject.

--

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 14:06:53 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 20:21:09 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 10:43:49 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Frank Krygowski writes:

On Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:50:58 PM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
Sir Ridesalot writes:

I believe it was Quakers who when building wooden ships used square
pegs in round holes because that stopped the peg from twisting loose
in use. So, sometimes even a square peg in a round hole is useful.

Not just Quakers, surely. Treenails were standard practice. I have
read that the non-native black locust trees in my area were originally
introduced to provide treenail stock.

Here are some pictures and video:

http://www.boat-building.org/learn-s...ood/treenails/

Those certainly look round to me.

The head ends are left square, and the corners are driven into whatever
is being fastened. I would be amazed if Quakers or anyone else drove
full-length square pegs into round holes.

Why in the world would one want to leave a square head on a round peg.
Beside I don't think that you are envisioning just how treenails were
installed... The ends of the treenail were slotted and after driving
into place wedges were driven into the end of the treenail to lock it
in place.

Why would anyone put a flat head on a nail? So it doesn't go all the way
into the hole. The corners bite into the hole, keeping it in place
before wedges are driven into each end. After that the protruding ends
can be cut off.

I don't have to envision it, because I can watch the nice video of a guy
who apparently does it for a living:

http://www.boat-building.org/learn-s...ood/treenails/

It's really pretty entertaining.

All I can say that I've spent time examining the remains of schooners
built in the early 1900's, I spent quite a bit of time helping with
the rebuilding of a 60 ft. wooden fishing boat under the supervision
of a wooden boat builder that was born in 1890 and spent his life
building traditional Maine wooden boats, I've build a boat or two
myself, and I've never seen a treenail with a square head.

But if you've seen it in the movies then I'll bow to your superior
knowledge.

So you've installed treenails? How were they made? Did you make them?
It seems to me that the only straightforward ways of making round pins
out of wood start with squares, why wouldn't it be *easier* to leave a
square head on them?

Well historically they were made by a bloke who split a plank into
smaller pieces and then used, probably a draw knife, to make them into
a round pin. My grandfather's barn, that I mentioned had treenails for
the mortise-tenon joints that weren't perfectly round.

I believe that the treenails you saw were probably made by turning the
pins on a lathe of some sort, a device that would not have been
available in a shipyard of the period in which treenails were commonly
used.


I won't claim to have more experience than you, but those Dutch guys
have a much better presentation, so I'll believe them first.

Interestingly I came across a "you-tube" of a guy making treenails,
see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Vb1dfvWG1A
do you suppose that the table saw obviously used to make the square
sticks used as feed stock for the pins, or the electric drill used to
rotate the sticks through the cutter tube, were available during the
years when treenails were the only, or certainly the cheapest, method
of holding wood beams and planks together?

But never mind, you saw it in the movies.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:36:12 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

John B. wrote:
:On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 20:21:09 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

:John B. writes:
:
: On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 10:43:49 -0500, Radey Shouman
: wrote:
:
:Frank Krygowski writes:
:
: On Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:50:58 PM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
: Sir Ridesalot writes:
:
: I believe it was Quakers who when building wooden ships used square
: pegs in round holes because that stopped the peg from twisting loose
: in use. So, sometimes even a square peg in a round hole is useful.
:
: Not just Quakers, surely. Treenails were standard practice. I have
: read that the non-native black locust trees in my area were originally
: introduced to provide treenail stock.
:
: Here are some pictures and video:
:
: http://www.boat-building.org/learn-s...ood/treenails/
:
: Those certainly look round to me.
:
:The head ends are left square, and the corners are driven into whatever
:is being fastened. I would be amazed if Quakers or anyone else drove
:full-length square pegs into round holes.
:
: Why in the world would one want to leave a square head on a round peg.
: Beside I don't think that you are envisioning just how treenails were
: installed... The ends of the treenail were slotted and after driving
: into place wedges were driven into the end of the treenail to lock it
: in place.
:
:Why would anyone put a flat head on a nail? So it doesn't go all the way
:into the hole. The corners bite into the hole, keeping it in place
:before wedges are driven into each end. After that the protruding ends
:can be cut off.
:
:I don't have to envision it, because I can watch the nice video of a guy
:who apparently does it for a living:
:
:http://www.boat-building.org/learn-s...ood/treenails/
:
:It's really pretty entertaining.

:All I can say that I've spent time examining the remains of schooners
:built in the early 1900's, I spent quite a bit of time helping with
:the rebuilding of a 60 ft. wooden fishing boat under the supervision
f a wooden boat builder that was born in 1890 and spent his life
:building traditional Maine wooden boats, I've build a boat or two
:myself, and I've never seen a treenail with a square head.

Before about 1820, no treenails were round. They were square, the
better grade hexaganal ("eight square"). The engine lathe made it
possible to make round treenails, which are markedly inferior. (So
much so that using round treenails increased the cost of insuring a
ship, or made it impossible to do so.) The advantage of a square or
hex treenail is that it will go into a hole rather smaller than the
treenail, which greatly increases the holding force it exerts. None
of these were expanded with wedges, which is a slip shod technique.


Well, as I previously said, my grandfather's barn was built with
mortise-tenon joints holding the post and beams together and the
joints were pinned with treenails. and they were essentially round,
and I doubt that barn builders in the 1700's had a lathe set up at the
building site to make the pins.

And I might add, that I've certainly seen masts and spars on the USS
Constitution (built in 1794) that were round. Long skinny round things
they were. If a lathe was necessary to make them it must have been a
big one.

For what it is worth, tree nails went out of style with the advent of
cheap wrought iron or galvanized "clench bolts".

:But if you've seen it in the movies then I'll bow to your superior
:knowledge.

I wouldn't trust the twentieth century for knowing how to make things
with wood. the treenail as obsolete before then, and the reasons for
prefering one form over antoher are easily frogotten. There's plenty
of 18th and 19th century documentation about the subject.
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. writes:

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 14:06:53 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 20:21:09 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 10:43:49 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Frank Krygowski writes:

On Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:50:58 PM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
Sir Ridesalot writes:

I believe it was Quakers who when building wooden ships used square
pegs in round holes because that stopped the peg from twisting loose
in use. So, sometimes even a square peg in a round hole is useful.

Not just Quakers, surely. Treenails were standard practice. I have
read that the non-native black locust trees in my area were originally
introduced to provide treenail stock.

Here are some pictures and video:

http://www.boat-building.org/learn-s...ood/treenails/

Those certainly look round to me.

The head ends are left square, and the corners are driven into whatever
is being fastened. I would be amazed if Quakers or anyone else drove
full-length square pegs into round holes.

Why in the world would one want to leave a square head on a round peg.
Beside I don't think that you are envisioning just how treenails were
installed... The ends of the treenail were slotted and after driving
into place wedges were driven into the end of the treenail to lock it
in place.

Why would anyone put a flat head on a nail? So it doesn't go all the way
into the hole. The corners bite into the hole, keeping it in place
before wedges are driven into each end. After that the protruding ends
can be cut off.

I don't have to envision it, because I can watch the nice video of a guy
who apparently does it for a living:

http://www.boat-building.org/learn-s...ood/treenails/

It's really pretty entertaining.

All I can say that I've spent time examining the remains of schooners
built in the early 1900's, I spent quite a bit of time helping with
the rebuilding of a 60 ft. wooden fishing boat under the supervision
of a wooden boat builder that was born in 1890 and spent his life
building traditional Maine wooden boats, I've build a boat or two
myself, and I've never seen a treenail with a square head.

But if you've seen it in the movies then I'll bow to your superior
knowledge.

So you've installed treenails? How were they made? Did you make them?
It seems to me that the only straightforward ways of making round pins
out of wood start with squares, why wouldn't it be *easier* to leave a
square head on them?

Well historically they were made by a bloke who split a plank into
smaller pieces and then used, probably a draw knife, to make them into
a round pin. My grandfather's barn, that I mentioned had treenails for
the mortise-tenon joints that weren't perfectly round.

Right, he split them into roughly square pieces, and then rounded them.
It's extra trouble to take the square head off, in that case -- you
have to turn the bugger around on your shaving horse, an extra step.

I believe that the treenails you saw were probably made by turning the
pins on a lathe of some sort, a device that would not have been
available in a shipyard of the period in which treenails were commonly
used.

True, I never claimed they were made in a historical fashion.


I won't claim to have more experience than you, but those Dutch guys
have a much better presentation, so I'll believe them first.

Interestingly I came across a "you-tube" of a guy making treenails,
see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Vb1dfvWG1A

That comes from the website I posted -- they build one fairly large
wooden vessel, and film quite a bit of it.

do you suppose that the table saw obviously used to make the square
sticks used as feed stock for the pins, or the electric drill used to
rotate the sticks through the cutter tube, were available during the
years when treenails were the only, or certainly the cheapest, method
of holding wood beams and planks together?

I'm sure they weren't, and I'm sure those guys would have given a lot to
be able to bore holes with the kind of abandon we can now. But I also
suspect that those guys know more about historically plausible ship
jointing than you do, movies or not.

--

John B. writes:

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:36:12 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

John B. wrote:
:On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 20:21:09 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

:John B. writes:
:
: On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 10:43:49 -0500, Radey Shouman
: wrote:
:
:Frank Krygowski writes:
:
: On Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:50:58 PM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
: Sir Ridesalot writes:
:
: I believe it was Quakers who when building wooden ships used square
: pegs in round holes because that stopped the peg from twisting loose
: in use. So, sometimes even a square peg in a round hole is useful.
:
: Not just Quakers, surely. Treenails were standard practice. I have
: read that the non-native black locust trees in my area were originally
: introduced to provide treenail stock.
:
: Here are some pictures and video:
:
: http://www.boat-building.org/learn-s...ood/treenails/
:
: Those certainly look round to me.
:
:The head ends are left square, and the corners are driven into whatever
:is being fastened. I would be amazed if Quakers or anyone else drove
:full-length square pegs into round holes.
:
: Why in the world would one want to leave a square head on a round peg.
: Beside I don't think that you are envisioning just how treenails were
: installed... The ends of the treenail were slotted and after driving
: into place wedges were driven into the end of the treenail to lock it
: in place.
:
:Why would anyone put a flat head on a nail? So it doesn't go all the way
:into the hole. The corners bite into the hole, keeping it in place
:before wedges are driven into each end. After that the protruding ends
:can be cut off.
:
:I don't have to envision it, because I can watch the nice video of a guy
:who apparently does it for a living:
:
:http://www.boat-building.org/learn-s...ood/treenails/
:
:It's really pretty entertaining.

:All I can say that I've spent time examining the remains of schooners
:built in the early 1900's, I spent quite a bit of time helping with
:the rebuilding of a 60 ft. wooden fishing boat under the supervision
f a wooden boat builder that was born in 1890 and spent his life
:building traditional Maine wooden boats, I've build a boat or two
:myself, and I've never seen a treenail with a square head.

Before about 1820, no treenails were round. They were square, the
better grade hexaganal ("eight square"). The engine lathe made it
possible to make round treenails, which are markedly inferior. (So
much so that using round treenails increased the cost of insuring a
ship, or made it impossible to do so.) The advantage of a square or
hex treenail is that it will go into a hole rather smaller than the
treenail, which greatly increases the holding force it exerts. None
of these were expanded with wedges, which is a slip shod technique.


Well, as I previously said, my grandfather's barn was built with
mortise-tenon joints holding the post and beams together and the
joints were pinned with treenails. and they were essentially round,
and I doubt that barn builders in the 1700's had a lathe set up at the
building site to make the pins.

Almost any pin can restrain a mortise and tenon joint; all the forces
are perpendicular to the grain of the pin. That is, there is no force
trying to extract the pin.

Treenails are something different; they have to sustain forces parallel
to the grain.

And I might add, that I've certainly seen masts and spars on the USS
Constitution (built in 1794) that were round. Long skinny round things
they were. If a lathe was necessary to make them it must have been a
big one.

The Constitution has (obviously) been repeatedly re-rigged. They were
working on it last time I saw it, a couple of years ago. Many of the
tools in use looked pretty modern to me, but I did not see any oversized
lathes.

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