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#21
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Oh well, there goes the honey
On 11 Mar, 17:35, Andre Jute wrote:
According to the tin, the ingredients of Proofide are tallow, cod oil, vegetable oil, paraffin wax, beeswax, citronella oil. All in the proportions that Brooks think most suitable for a cycle saddle. Are they correct? Perhaps the ongoing nourishment is not needed when the top is wax polished and kept that way. Normal shoe polish or cream has oil/grease as well as wax so should have a similar effect. Or should I get some proofide for my shoes? TJ |
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#22
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Oh well, there goes the honey
Andre Jute wrote:
That's really very little maintenance for a lot of comfort, if the Brooks proselytizers are right, and even more comfort, if I (after Sheldon) turn out to be right to soak it in neatsfoot oil. The measure of success will be both in getting the comfort you desire, and in the number of miles or years before you run out of tension adjustment and the saddle top comes to rest on the rails underneath when you sit down. This is a function of both the leather's ability to stretch over time, and the amount of tension created by the rider's weight and saddle frame configuration. Things that make leather more supple tend to make it stretch. The top of a Brooks is under quite a bit of tension when it is in use, and that's why it has a mechanism for taking up slack. Recently, I built a coaster brake road bike for my wife, trying to come up with a nice machine without spending a penny more than absolutely necessary. She adores the Brooks B66S on her other bike, and I had a B66 Universal that had run out of tension adjustment. I took the thing apart, machined a fitted brass nub for the adjustment both, and silver brazed it on to add 1/2" more takeup. If it were still my saddle, I'd worry that the small amount of extra extension might cause the adjustment bolt to bend or break. But my wife weighs a lot less than I do, so I'm not worried about it. In fact, I have seen more leather saddles destroyed by exposure and lack of care than by excessive softening. But that could be because overstretched saddles go straight into the garbage while cracked and neglected saddles stay with their rusty and neglected bikes. Chalo wrote: *I don't use any kind of liquid oil on my own Brooks and Lepper saddles. Do you find the Leppers satisfactory? I liked the chunky styling of the rails on some of the more modern ones but was put off by a German woman who wanted one but collected a lot of stories about recent Lepper saddles suffering a lack of quality control, having to be returned. I have had something like a half dozen Lepper saddles over the years; because I came by them cheaply and in arbitrary sizes, most of them have gone to serve on my friends' bikes. But every one of them I have laid my hands on was first quality. There is a characteristic feel to a Lepper that differs from that of a Brooks. Leppers are generally more compliant in their shells and springs, so there is more of a sensation of sitting on an active mechanism. The one Lepper-made Swiss military saddle I bought was thicker-topped, harder, and more stiffly sprung than anything I've seen before or since. I assume it reflected the preferences of the Swiss army more than Lepper's own style. Chalo |
#23
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Oh well, there goes the honey
Nick L Plate wrote:
On 11 Mar, 10:11, Andre Jute wrote: On Mar 10, 9:29 pm, Still Just Me wrote: Just because Brooks marketing and sales tells you that you need to buy a pricy can of Proofhyde from them doesn't make it true. "Can" of Proofide? Unfortunately not. It's a tiny flat tin about an inch and a bit across, 40g, for a higher price than half a litre of neatsfoot oil that has been good enough for the saddles of Her Majesty's Household Cavalry for more than two centuries. The photographs of the Proofide tin always make it seem much, much bigger... -- AJ So what is the magic in a proofide tin that I cant get from a non pigmented shoe wax or polish? I know people have used Mr Sheen which is synthetic. I've experimented with this quite a bit[1] and just about anything else will soften the leather, because most applications want to soften the leather (shoes, saddles, coats etc). So imho, proofhide is pretty good. However, there are some applications that don't require softening, Obenauf's LP was quoted earlier. Proofhide is pretty cheap because a few grams per application is all you need, but I have a mind to try some other beeswax/lanolin concoction. [1] Neatsfoot, shoe polish, furniture polish, nikwax, wax[2], beeswax. [2] Worked surprisingly well but difficult to apply. |
#24
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Oh well, there goes the honey
Martin Riddle wrote:
"Still Just Me" wrote in message ... On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:14:40 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote: On Mar 10, 7:31 pm, landotter wrote: On Mar 10, 1:57 pm, Andre Jute wrote: Soaked my honey-coloured Brooks B73 and matching grips in half a litre of best quality neatsfoot oil. That would be idiotic. Enjoy your ruined saddle. Don't panic, Ott. The Brooks saddle only has to last me another thirty years or so, probably less than a 100K miles. As Sheldon pointed out, the guy who to general outrage soaked his Brooks saddles in motor oil had the misfortune to wear out one at 300K miles. Yeah, he was an idiot, just like me, he only got 300,000 miles out of a Brooks saddle. Wise up, man. Not everything you hear on the corner of Myth Avenue and Misinformation Boulevard (aka RBT) is the truth. Even if you're right, who cares? I'll just mailorder another saddle, and next time I'll know to Proofide it instead. Whoever told you experience is a free lunch was huckster. In any event, I got the method of soaking the saddle in neatsfoot oil from the sainted Sheldon's netsite. I hope you're not traducing Sheldon's memory by suggesting that he was less than infallible. Ditto. My neatsfoot lubed saddle is 35 years old and going strong. Just because Brooks marketing and sales tells you that you need to buy a pricy can of Proofhyde from them doesn't make it true. I always thought neat's-foot breaks down leather very fast, to a mush. Plus its sticky. To soften up leather, its recommended to use lanolin. After all your not sitting on a baseball glove. 'Effax Leather Balsam Clear' is a good choice for Brooks saddle (instead of Proofide). Made from bees wax and lanolin. It is not sticky and smells great. http://www.advancedequine.com/PhotoG...ode=595%2D1714 http://www.goodwoods.com.au/prod1512.htm -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ "Don't try any other colors, red's the only one that works." – Sheldon Brown, 1944-2008 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ |
#25
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Oh well, there goes the honey
In article
, Andre Jute wrote: On Mar 11, 2:44*pm, Nick L Plate wrote: On 11 Mar, 10:11, Andre Jute wrote: On Mar 10, 9:29 pm, Still Just Me wrote: Just because Brooks marketing and sales tells you that you need to buy a pricy can of Proofhyde from them doesn't make it true. "Can" of Proofide? Unfortunately not. It's a tiny flat tin about an inch and a bit across, 40g, for a higher price than half a litre of neatsfoot oil that has been good enough for the saddles of Her Majesty's Household Cavalry for more than two centuries. The photographs of the Proofide tin always make it seem much, much bigger... -- AJ So what is the magic in a proofide tin that I cant get from a non pigmented shoe wax or polish? *I know people have used Mr Sheen *which is synthetic. TJ According to the tin, the ingredients of Proofide are tallow, cod oil, vegetable oil, paraffin wax, beeswax, citronella oil. Looks like you could knock up a makeshift in almost anyone's kitchen: some lamb fat, cod liver oil from the medicine cabinet, olive oil, a candle, some wax from your breakfast honey, and a dash of bug repellant, which usually has citronella oil in it. However, it is possible that the proportions have some magic, and the purity of the ingredients might also have an influence. The Proofide tin measures just under two inches diameter by three quarters of an inch thick. In the States it sells for about fifteen dollars. I bought a service kit with my saddle, simply because I always buy all the necessary specialist tools and consumptibles with everything I order, to save buggering around later. I have no idea if the Proofide is a rip -- trading on the mystique to boost the profit margin when something else will do the same job at a fraction of the price -- or a magic potion. I shall use it simply because it comes from the same place as the saddle. Then use another beeswax formulation such as Sno-Seal, for less money. http://workingperson.com/products/22_101/1/984/SNO-SEAL_7_Oz._Beeswax_Waterproofing.html?utm_content= 984&utm_campaign=ci&utm_medium=comp&utm_source=fro ogle&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=984 -- Michael Press |
#26
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Oh well, there goes the honey
On Mar 11, 7:19*pm, Chalo wrote:
Andre Jute wrote: Do you find the Leppers satisfactory? I liked the chunky styling of the rails on some of the more modern ones but was put off by a German woman who wanted one but collected a lot of stories about recent Lepper saddles suffering a lack of quality control, having to be returned. I have had something like a half dozen Lepper saddles over the years; because I came by them cheaply and in arbitrary sizes, most of them have gone to serve on my friends' bikes. *But every one of them I have laid my hands on was first quality. There is a characteristic feel to a Lepper that differs from that of a Brooks. *Leppers are generally more compliant in their shells and springs, so there is more of a sensation of sitting on an active mechanism. *The one Lepper-made Swiss military saddle I bought was thicker-topped, harder, and more stiffly sprung than anything I've seen before or since. *I assume it reflected the preferences of the Swiss army more than Lepper's own style. I was advised to buy one of the Swiss Army Lepper saddles, available as military surplus from what appeared to be a US source. But it was pretty expensive for surplus and in fact I paid less for my Brooks saddle. I went for the Brooks rather than the Lepper on the assumption that, if I was getting a Brooks type thick-leather, hard saddle under another name, I may as well buy the Brooks. The Leppers I was looking at earlier were the plushier consumer models. -- Andre Jute |
#27
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Oh well, there goes the honey
On Mar 11, 12:44 pm, Nick L Plate wrote:
On 11 Mar, 16:07, landotter wrote: All you need to protect the top of a Brooks saddle ridden on a fendered bike is something simple like cheap clear shoe wax polish. Pledge would probably be fine as well. Or do nothing and just put a trash bag on it if it rains. Precisley my understanding. So what's the magic in proofide? Nothing. It's some fancy fat and wax in an overpriced tin. However-- combining the two probably prevents the casual user from overconditioning the saddle, unless they're overzealous with it. I state this from experience. I've had my way with three new Brooks in years past and learned the lesson the hard way. The best way to soften a Brooks-and it only needs slight break in--is to ride the thing and let nature take its course. With my experience of not ruining, but certainly over-breaking those saddles--I could see myself riding a Brooks again if I found one on sale. I'd probably not do a damn thing to it, though, other than just ride it. If I was to ride one again, it certainly would be purely to suffer it for aesthetics, as my last Flyer was pretty meh. Like I've been saying for the past few years--if you want comfort, get a quality plastic saddle from Taiwan, they've got it down. I love Velo saddles. They're dirt cheap to boot. |
#28
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Oh well, there goes the honey
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#29
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Oh well, there goes the honey
On Mar 12, 6:17*am, Tosspot wrote:
wrote: snip A year of discomfort? *I find Brooks saddles comfortable from mile one. *Maybe more comfortable after thousands of miles but comfortable all along. *Never understood where this break in period nonsense came from. *Likely from people who have never ridden a Brooks. *How they ever came to the idea that their hard plastic nylon carbon torture contraption does not need a break in but a leather Brooks does is a mystery. And there you go, what I've been saying for years. *Saddle evangelists like to proselytise, they can't see it's not a one shoe fits all world. *I ride Brooks, I'll defend them, but if the shoe fits, ride it. *If the saddle is a 5 dollar walmart special, be happy, if it's a 100 dollar SanBrookeRolls, well, you'll wind up paying 100 dollars eventually, because it will be the only saddle that is comfortable. All the same, wouldn't you agree that if a cyclist has the time and the money, he should try a few things? And, once he has frame and mechanics of his bike sorted, wouldn't you say a Brooks saddle should be high up on the List of Things to Try? There is, not to put too fine a point on it, adequate evidence on RBT, in this thread even, that I'm no one's fashion victim, that I don't run with any flock of sheep, that the pressure tactics of owners desperate to justify overpriced but inadequate elite purchases elicits only pity for the impressionable, and that advertising hype leaves me cold. And we all know that I already have a comfortable seat which suits me brilliantly, the Cheeko90. However, beyond all the bad reasons to do something listed above (and the good reason to do nothing) lies reputation earned through Darwinian selection. A Brooks saddle is iconic by right of survival; some of the most consistenly impressive people on RBT now and in the past ride and recommend Brooks saddles. I have the time and the inclination -- and the right bike for a Brooks saddle of a certain type -- and that seems to me half a reason already to see what a Brooks is about; maybe there's something in it for me, a small extra edge of comfort, a style of riding I haven't investigated yet---who knows what; an open mind always finds something new. The other half of the reason is to discover whether the Brooks brigade are merely more overspending religious cultists without overly much reason to be smug (like these BUMMSON mullahs currently causing a stir on our board) or, if the Brookites speak the truth, that I should know it too. Hey, it's a small adventure, it keeps me out of the pub, it has kept a whole bunch of antisocial elements writing to RBT for several days now instead of carrying a rifle up a water tower overlooking a school playground. That's a gain already. I really wish I could ride San Marco Rolls, they look fantastic, I can relate to that. Now that Chalo has straightened me out about the Lepper quality, I half wish I bought one of the modernised Lepper, which definitely have it over the Brooks aesthetically, in the way that Dutch design generally has it by a mile over British design (what British design?). But perhaps another opportunity will offer. (It's my last bike. It's my last bike. It's my last bike. I'm not buying another bike! It's my last bike!) but I tried for thousands of miles, and it was still agony, Brooks B17, fine. *Me mate took the San Marco, he loves them, says nothing better for a commuting/training saddle, he's happy, I'm happy. Exactly. What can I lose, a 150 Euro or so, including the tool and service parts and consumptibles and carriage from SJS in England, less what I can sell it on for. (I normally don't sell on gear but give it away to local cyclists with bikes in need of repair or upgrading.) You don't get much for 150 smackers these days. The bike came as standard with a Terry Moto (maybe Molto? can't be bothered to go find it) saddle from Velo, retail cost 22 Euro, very hard and uncomfortable I thought for the two klicks or so I rode it before swapping in my Cheeko90, but apparently well reputed among distance tourers. The Brooks should at an irreducable minimum beat the Terry---so far (about 12km) it hasn't. To be judged a success worth 150 Euro the Brooks must be at least as good as my 40 Euro (delivered) Cheeko90 which lasts around four years before it becomes tacky because the materials aren't of the same quality as the design. Specifically that means the Brooks must last 15 years minimum *and* must after break-in be as comfortable as the *very* comfortable Cheeko90. Life is tough at the top. Can't say fairer than making the rules of the test public at the start. Andre Jute Visit Jute on Amps at http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/ "wonderfully well written and reasoned information for the tube audio constructor" John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare "an unbelievably comprehensive web site containing vital gems of wisdom" Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review |
#30
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Oh well, there goes the honey
On Mar 12, 7:18*am, Andre Jute wrote:
On Mar 12, 6:17*am, Tosspot wrote: wrote: snip A year of discomfort? *I find Brooks saddles comfortable from mile one. *Maybe more comfortable after thousands of miles but comfortable all along. *Never understood where this break in period nonsense came from. *Likely from people who have never ridden a Brooks. *How they ever came to the idea that their hard plastic nylon carbon torture contraption does not need a break in but a leather Brooks does is a mystery. And there you go, what I've been saying for years. *Saddle evangelists like to proselytise, they can't see it's not a one shoe fits all world. *I ride Brooks, I'll defend them, but if the shoe fits, ride it. *If the saddle is a 5 dollar walmart special, be happy, if it's a 100 dollar SanBrookeRolls, well, you'll wind up paying 100 dollars eventually, because it will be the only saddle that is comfortable. All the same, wouldn't you agree that if a cyclist has the time and the money, he should try a few things? And, once he has frame and mechanics of his bike sorted, wouldn't you say a Brooks saddle should be high up on the List of Things to Try? There is, not to put too fine a point on it, adequate evidence on RBT, in this thread even, that I'm no one's fashion victim, that I don't run with any flock of sheep, that the pressure tactics of owners desperate to justify overpriced but inadequate elite purchases elicits only pity for the impressionable, and that advertising hype leaves me cold. And we all know that I already have a comfortable seat which suits me brilliantly, the Cheeko90. However, beyond all the bad reasons to do something listed above (and the good reason to do nothing) lies reputation earned through Darwinian selection. A Brooks saddle is iconic by right of survival; some of the most consistenly impressive people on RBT now and in the past ride and recommend Brooks saddles. I have the time and the inclination -- and the right bike for a Brooks saddle of a certain type -- and that seems to me half a reason already to see what a Brooks is about; maybe there's something in it for me, a small extra edge of comfort, a style of riding I haven't investigated yet---who knows what; an open mind always finds something new. The other half of the reason is to discover whether the Brooks brigade are merely more overspending religious cultists without overly much reason to be smug (like these BUMMSON mullahs currently causing a stir on our board) or, if the Brookites speak the truth, that I should know it too. Hey, it's a small adventure, it keeps me out of the pub, it has kept a whole bunch of antisocial elements writing to RBT for several days now instead of carrying a rifle up a water tower overlooking a school playground. That's a gain already. I really wish I could ride San Marco Rolls, they look fantastic, I can relate to that. Now that Chalo has straightened me out about the Lepper quality, I half wish I bought one of the modernised Lepper, which definitely have it over the Brooks aesthetically, in the way that Dutch design generally has it by a mile over British design (what British design?). But perhaps another opportunity will offer. (It's my last bike. It's my last bike. It's my last bike. I'm not buying another bike! It's my last bike!) but I tried for thousands of miles, and it was still agony, Brooks B17, fine. *Me mate took the San Marco, he loves them, says nothing better for a commuting/training saddle, he's happy, I'm happy. Exactly. What can I lose, a 150 Euro or so, including the tool and service parts and consumptibles and carriage from SJS in England, less what I can sell it on for. (I normally don't sell on gear but give it away to local cyclists with bikes in need of repair or upgrading.) You don't get much for 150 smackers these days. There are many fine Brooks saddles for less than 150 Euro. http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/C...CategoryID=211 The bike came as standard with a Terry Moto (maybe Molto? can't be bothered to go find it) saddle from Velo, retail cost 22 Euro, very hard and uncomfortable I thought for the two klicks or so I rode it before swapping in my Cheeko90, but apparently well reputed among distance tourers. The Brooks should at an irreducable minimum beat the Terry---so far (about 12km) it hasn't. To be judged a success worth 150 Euro the Brooks must be at least as good as my 40 Euro (delivered) Cheeko90 which lasts around four years before it becomes tacky because the materials aren't of the same quality as the design. Specifically that means the Brooks must last 15 years minimum *and* must after break-in be as comfortable as the *very* comfortable Cheeko90. Life is tough at the top. Can't say fairer than making the rules of the test public at the start. Andre Jute Visit Jute on Amps at *http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/ "wonderfully well written and reasoned information for the tube audio constructor" John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare "an unbelievably comprehensive web site containing vital gems of wisdom" Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
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