I was misled

Bret Wade wrote:

I agree as well. I'll contribute the following which is the full text
of a speech by former Vice President Al Gore to the American
Constitution Society at Georgetown University on June 24.

http://alternet.org/election04/19047/

I saw a wonderful tape of Gore giving a speech advocating the overthrown of
Saddam, juxtaposed with his recent rants. Maybe someone should make a
"documentary" about it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/809168.stm (too lazy to actually
find speech, but this references it or something similar).

Bill "hypocrisy abounds" S.

And once again:

http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=1310344&l=42270

Jobst Brandt

wrote:

Mark Hickey writes:

Thing is, you get the whole story - both sides. For some reason,
that approach seems to be total anathema to many liberals. I
suppose it's easier to go through life not hearing anything that
contradicts your preconceived notions - but personally I would hate
to appear that naive when discussing the issues in public.

Wait a minute! You are describing GWB who does not listen to any
advisor who conflicts with his perception of what is going on.

Not true.

That's
how he got us into the war and can't and won't get out even though the
rest of civilized nations urge that course.

Funny, he's doing precisely what he said he'd do all along. He never
said it would be quick or easy.

This is the main thread
of the current administration, to not accept information that goes
against their vision... Iraqis will welcome us with open arms, etc.

The rank and file Iraqis (and Afghanis) are very glad that we took out
their despotic leadership. And it's no surprise they'd like us to
leave as soon as things are "stable" (that's a relative term in the
middle east). I'm sure the folks in Japan and Germany felt the same
way, though it took much, much, much longer to get them sorted out.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

(JP) wrote:

Mark Hickey wrote in message . ..
(JP) wrote:

My guess is that if Putin did tell Bush
something, the *whole* story is actually embarassing so Bush can't use
it- maybe something like, Putin told Bush that Iraq was making plans
to attack the US with terrorists if we invaded Iraq.

Heh... I can always count on you to brew up new and increasingly
fanciful conspiracy theories...

I would like to hear *your* theory about why the Bush administration
hasn't said a single word about Putin's claim. Really. I find the
whole thing pretty puzzling. And, as I said, I did read about someone
in the Executive Branch dismissing it. So what is your theory?

Why do you think the administration didn't mention Putin's claim?
Didn't they cover that on ihategeorgebush.com??? ;-)

So you're saying the St. Pete Times and the SF Chronical maintain the
"daily.misleader.org" website. LOL.

No. I'm saying that the article that came up on their site references
articles in the St. Petersburg Times and San Francisco Chronicles that
completely support their article. You have absolutely no basis to
discredit anything on daily.misleader.org, so you just pull
accusations out of the air and refuse to address the fact that there
are solid references in the story, so solid that they are essentially
irrefuatable.

Show me one reference other than a third hand suggestion that "gee
this order must have come from the White House". Heh. This is old,
old, old news - it came out three years ago and was rightfully
dismissed as a non-issue. But this IS the political silly season I
guess.

Thing is, you get the whole story - both sides. For some reason, that
approach seems to be total anathema to many liberals. I suppose it's
easier to go through life not hearing anything that contradicts your
preconceived notions - but personally I would hate to appear that
naive when discussing the issues in public.

How ironic then that you seem so naive, if not ignorant, when
discussing these issues in public. I can't recall you ever being able
to quote a single fact or present any kind of logical analysis on
anything not bicycle related.

The things I quote probably don't line up with your "news sources".
You do the math. You've never been able to contradict the facts I
quote, just complain about 'em.

Let's just examine the post I'm responding to:

1. You make derogatory comments about daily.misleader.org implying
that it is an untrustworthy source. This argument is in its essence
nothing more than name calling. You cite no evidence to contradict any
part of any story on the site. You cite no evidence to contradict the
sources for any of those stories. You refuse to address the fact that
the story I cited is based on articles from two major newspapers and
instead try to confuse the issue by setting up a strawman claim to
knockdown despite it having no connection whatever to my actual
comments. Not a single fact or logical conclusion, though, in your
entire response.

OK, so show me a direct link from that flight to the White House. I
dare you. Not a third hand supposition by a guy who works for the
Tampa Airport...

2. No evidence that Drudge presents both sides of the story. No
evidence that he is reliable. No evidence that Drudge backs up his
reports with references.

Heh heh heh... have you even SEEN the the Drudge website? I thought
not... you couldn't doubt the balanced nature if you had. It
references from both ends of the spectrum and everywhere in between.

You're right, though, I'm not interested in both sides of the story.
Reality only has one side, with different perspectives, and
unfortunately, your perspective requires mostly closing your eyes so
you can ignore the reality of the Bush administration's huge negative
accomplishments: failure to defend against 9/11; exploding national
deficits; a mostly jobless economic recovery with falling real wages;
over 800 of our troops dead in Iraq for a lie.

These are the facts. There is no other side to it, only excuses.

Ignoring of course the things you don't want to confront - the
recession that was handed to Bush upon taking office, the ongoing
terrorist war against the US, the death of thousands of Americans to
teorrists, the vast amount of intelligence about the danger posed by
Saddam Hussein. Oh and you might wanna check up on that "jobless
recovery" claim... there have been 1.4 million jobs since August and
the economy is growing at a blistering 4.5% rate.

Just the facts, Jack...

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Keith Willoughby wrote:

Fred wrote:

a mostly jobless economic recovery with falling real wages;

Simply not true. This is propaganda, not fact. If you'd like to cite
some credible source for this information, I'll cite some that will
show this is misinformation.

http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/mov...es/000995.html

| Real wage and salary income per capita has, so far, fallen by 3.5%
| over the Bush administration.

Granted, Brad is only a Professor of Economics at Berkeley.

Hmmmm, ya think maybe the recession Bush was handed and the 9/11
attack mighta had a little to do with that (not really sure the drop
was that large, but I'm too lazy to look it up right now)?

And BTW, did you know that the per capita income grew at 3.3% in the
last 12 months? And that's in an era with almost no inflation to
offset it.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

"Pat" wrote:

it is just as misleading to suggest that one should get ALL of his "facts"
and news from Drudge as it is from any other source. We should all be
reading everything we can so that tunnel vision doesn't ensue. For example,
you might want to add this site to your reading:

www.factcheck.org

Just a quick perusal - I like it... seems to be concerned about
exposing the blatant fabrications (on both sides). I'm saving a
bookmark to that one! Thanks!

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Steve-o wrote:

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 15:19:51 -0700, Mark Hickey
wrote:

However, he would wait for the UN to take action (which as we now know
would NEVER happen since they were on Saddam's payroll)

(You were speaking of conspiracy theories?)

Not really, just the huge amount of corruption and graft that's been
uncovered in the ongoing oil for food investigation. The "leaks" of
information, and hints from the official investigators make it clear
that we're going to find out highly placed UN officials are involved.

or you have a
president who will do what needs to be done, regardless of the
political posturing of France and Germany.

Interesting choice of words. It has yet to be demonstrated that
invading Iraq is what needed to be done. There is no evidence before
or since invasion that Iraq was responsible or even connected to what
happened on 9/11. Justification for US actions has degenerated to the
specious "Nip EVIL In The Bud By Any Means Necessary" argument.

Ummmm, there was never a connection made by the White House between
9/11 and Iraq, even if it's "common knowledge". Funny thing though,
no one's been able to dredge up a single comment by Bush that supports
their contention that he tried to make it.

P.S. There is evidence by the bucketload that Saudi money and power
was behind 9/11, yet the occupant of the white house believed what
needed to be done was to secretly evacuate rich and powerful Saudis
from our country.

I guess we should have announced to the world that we were going to
fly out members of the (large, BTW) Saudi royal family??! Like it or
not, they're about the closest thing we have to allies in the region,
and it would have been a huge mistake to forcibly detain them - heck,
the ACLU woulda gone nuts over that option! ;-)

P.P.S. I like bikes.

Me too - they don't use oil - or at least not very much - which helps
make the world a simpler place in lots of important ways.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Mark Hickey writes:

Thing is, you get the whole story - both sides. For some reason,
that approach seems to be total anathema to many liberals. I
suppose it's easier to go through life not hearing anything that
contradicts your preconceived notions - but personally I would
hate to appear that naive when discussing the issues in public.

Wait a minute! You are describing GWB who does not listen to any
advisor who conflicts with his perception of what is going on.

Not true.

That's how he got us into the war and can't and won't get out even
though the rest of civilized nations urge that course.

Funny, he's doing precisely what he said he'd do all along. He
never said it would be quick or easy.

What would be quick or easy? Why is our military in Iraq? What is
the purpose of this disaster to that country's, national, financial,
and human losses? I can see it takes time but what is this time doing
for any of the problems of the USA or Iraq?

This is the main thread of the current administration, to not
accept information that goes against their vision... Iraqis will
welcome us with open arms, etc.

The rank and file Iraqis (and Afghanis) are very glad that we took
out their despotic leadership. And it's no surprise they'd like us
to leave as soon as things are "stable" (that's a relative term in
the middle east). I'm sure the folks in Japan and Germany felt the
same way, though it took much, much, much longer to get them sorted
out.

Ohhh, lend me your rose colored glasses. From whom did you hear that
the rank and file (sounds military to me) people of either country is
glad for our military intervention. Afghanistan is practically back
where it was before our adventure there except that different folks
are in charge. Opium market is in full swing and only a couple of
principal cities are even slightly under civilian control. Let's not
even talk about Iraq, where we have unleashed terror attacks from all
sides on people who used to go about their daily lives in a far more
secure and peaceful land, albeit under a dictator who spent time going
after opponents rather than the entire population that is being
terrorized now.

Jobst Brandt

Steve-o wrote:

On 25 Jun 2004 22:53:35 -0700, (James
Annan) wrote:
Here in mild-mannered conservative Japan...

but they should at least be aware that this really is
how the rest of the world views him
(and by extension, those who elect him).

Or since he wasn't actually elected, "those who erect him."

Is that a Japanese pronunciation joke, or one about Monica? Oops,
wrong president... sorry. ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

What manner of off-point rubbish is this? Has Mike Vandeman stolen your
identity?


wrote in message
...
http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=1310344&l=42227

Jobst Brandt