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internal wrenching bolt



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 22nd 19, 10:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 787
Default internal wrenching bolt

On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-7, Chalo wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

Tom has a point in that most linear ("V") brake anchors do

not
have cylindrical heads and actually do look more like an

'internal
wrenching bolt':


Tom misses the substantially more important point that you won't find an "internal wrenching bolt" with metric threading, and that functionally the thing that fixes a V-brake's cable is a metric socket head cap screw. Just as a brake pivot bolt is usually a button head socket cap screw whether its head is domed or conical.


Not to be too critical - but it is the HEAD shape that is critical. As all of the illustrations that Jeff published shows - they are available in any threads. Can you explain to me exactly why you believe that the THREAD is what makes an internal wrenching head?

You're sounding more and more like Frank every day. He doesn't even understand that the difference between a taper head screw and a cap screw is. You're joining his club I see.
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  #12  
Old August 22nd 19, 10:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 787
Default internal wrenching bolt

On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 10:41:56 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, 22 August 2019 13:21:26 UTC-4, Chalo wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

Tom has a point in that most linear ("V") brake anchors do

not
have cylindrical heads and actually do look more like an

'internal
wrenching bolt':


Tom misses the substantially more important point that you won't find an "internal wrenching bolt" with metric threading, and that functionally the thing that fixes a V-brake's cable is a metric socket head cap screw. Just as a brake pivot bolt is usually a button head socket cap screw whether its head is domed or conical.


All the drawings I've seen of V-brakes simply call the thing a cable anchor bolt. If AK went into a bike shop and asked for a V-brake cable anchor bolt He very likely be asked what kind of bolt head. However, a hex-head bolt usually will fit even if the original bolt was X head.


The PURPOSE of the bolt is not the name of the head type.
  #13  
Old August 22nd 19, 11:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,709
Default internal wrenching bolt

On 8/22/2019 4:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-7, Chalo wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

Tom has a point in that most linear ("V") brake anchors do

not
have cylindrical heads and actually do look more like an

'internal
wrenching bolt':


Tom misses the substantially more important point that you won't find an "internal wrenching bolt" with metric threading, and that functionally the thing that fixes a V-brake's cable is a metric socket head cap screw. Just as a brake pivot bolt is usually a button head socket cap screw whether its head is domed or conical.


Not to be too critical - but it is the HEAD shape that is critical. As all of the illustrations that Jeff published shows - they are available in any threads. Can you explain to me exactly why you believe that the THREAD is what makes an internal wrenching head?

You're sounding more and more like Frank every day. He doesn't even understand that the difference between a taper head screw and a cap screw is. You're joining his club I see.


I have to admit I had never heard the term 'internal
wrenching bolt' until you wrote that.

Given the high profile disasters from counterfeit fasteners
sold to the Air Force and the required specification for
same (material, fit/finish tolerances, plating, hardness
etc) I could well imagine that USAF simply made up a
distinctive head shape to keep stray hardware out of their
system, keep engine mounting bolts separate from brake
system bolts and so on. I don't know that, but it's not
unreasonable.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #14  
Old August 23rd 19, 12:05 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 506
Default internal wrenching bolt

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 17:22:20 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 8/22/2019 4:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-7, Chalo wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

Tom has a point in that most linear ("V") brake anchors do
not
have cylindrical heads and actually do look more like an
'internal
wrenching bolt':

Tom misses the substantially more important point that you won't find an "internal wrenching bolt" with metric threading, and that functionally the thing that fixes a V-brake's cable is a metric socket head cap screw. Just as a brake pivot bolt is usually a button head socket cap screw whether its head is domed or conical.


Not to be too critical - but it is the HEAD shape that is critical. As all of the illustrations that Jeff published shows - they are available in any threads. Can you explain to me exactly why you believe that the THREAD is what makes an internal wrenching head?

You're sounding more and more like Frank every day. He doesn't even understand that the difference between a taper head screw and a cap screw is. You're joining his club I see.


I have to admit I had never heard the term 'internal
wrenching bolt' until you wrote that.

Given the high profile disasters from counterfeit fasteners
sold to the Air Force and the required specification for
same (material, fit/finish tolerances, plating, hardness
etc) I could well imagine that USAF simply made up a
distinctive head shape to keep stray hardware out of their
system, keep engine mounting bolts separate from brake
system bolts and so on. I don't know that, but it's not
unreasonable.


I hadn't known about the faulty fasteners. But when I was in the A.F.
there was a whole section of the Navy, A.F., and likely the Army, that
spent it's time determining and certifying that the proper bolt was
used in the proper place.

But, of course, they did this from the
"standards" marking on the bolt itself :-(

By the way, Caterpillar Tractor was very perturbed about falsely
marked "CAT" bolts that were being sold in Singapore - that were
actually manufactured in Italy.

We became involved as we had done a rebuild on a Caterpillar 6
cylinder engine and it was impossible to torque the head bolts. You
kept turning the wrench and the bolts kept stretching :-)

--

Cheers,

John B.
  #15  
Old August 23rd 19, 12:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,185
Default internal wrenching bolt

On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 3:22:26 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/22/2019 4:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-7, Chalo wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

Tom has a point in that most linear ("V") brake anchors do
not
have cylindrical heads and actually do look more like an
'internal
wrenching bolt':

Tom misses the substantially more important point that you won't find an "internal wrenching bolt" with metric threading, and that functionally the thing that fixes a V-brake's cable is a metric socket head cap screw. Just as a brake pivot bolt is usually a button head socket cap screw whether its head is domed or conical.


Not to be too critical - but it is the HEAD shape that is critical. As all of the illustrations that Jeff published shows - they are available in any threads. Can you explain to me exactly why you believe that the THREAD is what makes an internal wrenching head?

You're sounding more and more like Frank every day. He doesn't even understand that the difference between a taper head screw and a cap screw is. You're joining his club I see.


I have to admit I had never heard the term 'internal
wrenching bolt' until you wrote that.

Given the high profile disasters from counterfeit fasteners
sold to the Air Force and the required specification for
same (material, fit/finish tolerances, plating, hardness
etc) I could well imagine that USAF simply made up a
distinctive head shape to keep stray hardware out of their
system, keep engine mounting bolts separate from brake
system bolts and so on. I don't know that, but it's not
unreasonable.


Logically, an internal wrenching bolt is every bolt that is not an external wrenching bolt. It's like a giant venn diagram that would have socket head cap screws in the middle.

Here, study this: http://navybmr.com/study%20material/...14014A_ch6.pdf Note:

"View C shows an internal-wrenching bolt. Both the countersunk-head bolt and the internal-wrenching bolt have hexagonal recesses (six-sided holes) in their heads. They are tightened and loosened by use of appropriately sized Allen wrenches."

"Socket-Head — Socket-head machine screws are designed to be screwed into tapped holes by internal wrenching. They are used in applications that require high-strength precision products, compactness of the assembled parts, or sinking of the head into holes."

Please have a full report on my desk by 0400!

-- Jay Beattie.
  #16  
Old August 23rd 19, 01:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,611
Default internal wrenching bolt

On 8/22/2019 7:05 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 17:22:20 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 8/22/2019 4:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-7, Chalo wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

Tom has a point in that most linear ("V") brake anchors do
not
have cylindrical heads and actually do look more like an
'internal
wrenching bolt':

Tom misses the substantially more important point that you won't find an "internal wrenching bolt" with metric threading, and that functionally the thing that fixes a V-brake's cable is a metric socket head cap screw. Just as a brake pivot bolt is usually a button head socket cap screw whether its head is domed or conical.

Not to be too critical - but it is the HEAD shape that is critical. As all of the illustrations that Jeff published shows - they are available in any threads. Can you explain to me exactly why you believe that the THREAD is what makes an internal wrenching head?

You're sounding more and more like Frank every day. He doesn't even understand that the difference between a taper head screw and a cap screw is. You're joining his club I see.


I have to admit I had never heard the term 'internal
wrenching bolt' until you wrote that.

Given the high profile disasters from counterfeit fasteners
sold to the Air Force and the required specification for
same (material, fit/finish tolerances, plating, hardness
etc) I could well imagine that USAF simply made up a
distinctive head shape to keep stray hardware out of their
system, keep engine mounting bolts separate from brake
system bolts and so on. I don't know that, but it's not
unreasonable.


I hadn't known about the faulty fasteners. But when I was in the A.F.
there was a whole section of the Navy, A.F., and likely the Army, that
spent it's time determining and certifying that the proper bolt was
used in the proper place.

But, of course, they did this from the
"standards" marking on the bolt itself :-(

By the way, Caterpillar Tractor was very perturbed about falsely
marked "CAT" bolts that were being sold in Singapore - that were
actually manufactured in Italy.

We became involved as we had done a rebuild on a Caterpillar 6
cylinder engine and it was impossible to torque the head bolts. You
kept turning the wrench and the bolts kept stretching :-)


I suspect the unusual head shape of genuine military Internal Wrenching
Bolts is primarily to help insure the bolt strength and its
head-to-shaft radius are within specs - that is, to help prevent the use
of a sub-standard fastener in a critical application.

Of course, that doesn't mean every fastener with that head shape will
have those same properties. Companies can produce whatever part they
want for use on their own devices. And derailleur clamp screws are
certainly not ultra-strong or highly stressed. I've replaced stripped
ones with garden variety metric screws and had no issues.

Tom refuses to say what he's imagining about pressure on the washer, but
I think any such imaginings are fantasy. Unfortunately, I don't think
he's got the background to competently discuss that aspect.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #17  
Old August 23rd 19, 01:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,709
Default internal wrenching bolt

On 8/22/2019 6:41 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 3:22:26 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/22/2019 4:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-7, Chalo wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

Tom has a point in that most linear ("V") brake anchors do
not
have cylindrical heads and actually do look more like an
'internal
wrenching bolt':

Tom misses the substantially more important point that you won't find an "internal wrenching bolt" with metric threading, and that functionally the thing that fixes a V-brake's cable is a metric socket head cap screw. Just as a brake pivot bolt is usually a button head socket cap screw whether its head is domed or conical.

Not to be too critical - but it is the HEAD shape that is critical. As all of the illustrations that Jeff published shows - they are available in any threads. Can you explain to me exactly why you believe that the THREAD is what makes an internal wrenching head?

You're sounding more and more like Frank every day. He doesn't even understand that the difference between a taper head screw and a cap screw is. You're joining his club I see.


I have to admit I had never heard the term 'internal
wrenching bolt' until you wrote that.

Given the high profile disasters from counterfeit fasteners
sold to the Air Force and the required specification for
same (material, fit/finish tolerances, plating, hardness
etc) I could well imagine that USAF simply made up a
distinctive head shape to keep stray hardware out of their
system, keep engine mounting bolts separate from brake
system bolts and so on. I don't know that, but it's not
unreasonable.


Logically, an internal wrenching bolt is every bolt that is not an external wrenching bolt. It's like a giant venn diagram that would have socket head cap screws in the middle.

Here, study this: http://navybmr.com/study%20material/...14014A_ch6.pdf Note:

"View C shows an internal-wrenching bolt. Both the countersunk-head bolt and the internal-wrenching bolt have hexagonal recesses (six-sided holes) in their heads. They are tightened and loosened by use of appropriately sized Allen wrenches."

"Socket-Head — Socket-head machine screws are designed to be screwed into tapped holes by internal wrenching. They are used in applications that require high-strength precision products, compactness of the assembled parts, or sinking of the head into holes."

Please have a full report on my desk by 0400!

-- Jay Beattie.


Yes that's logical for plain English.

But for every web search 'internal wrenching bolt' I get Mil
Spec fasteners priced $15 t $30 each which are a magnitude
or more expensive than a cap screw, even a German cap screw.
The term seems to have special meaning.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #18  
Old August 23rd 19, 01:51 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,709
Default internal wrenching bolt

On 8/22/2019 7:19 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/22/2019 7:05 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 17:22:20 -0500, AMuzi
wrote:

On 8/22/2019 4:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-7, Chalo
wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

Tom has a point in that most linear ("V") brake
anchors do
not
have cylindrical heads and actually do look more like an
'internal
wrenching bolt':

Tom misses the substantially more important point that
you won't find an "internal wrenching bolt" with metric
threading, and that functionally the thing that fixes a
V-brake's cable is a metric socket head cap screw.
Just as a brake pivot bolt is usually a button head
socket cap screw whether its head is domed or conical.

Not to be too critical - but it is the HEAD shape that
is critical. As all of the illustrations that Jeff
published shows - they are available in any threads. Can
you explain to me exactly why you believe that the
THREAD is what makes an internal wrenching head?

You're sounding more and more like Frank every day. He
doesn't even understand that the difference between a
taper head screw and a cap screw is. You're joining his
club I see.


I have to admit I had never heard the term 'internal
wrenching bolt' until you wrote that.

Given the high profile disasters from counterfeit fasteners
sold to the Air Force and the required specification for
same (material, fit/finish tolerances, plating, hardness
etc) I could well imagine that USAF simply made up a
distinctive head shape to keep stray hardware out of their
system, keep engine mounting bolts separate from brake
system bolts and so on. I don't know that, but it's not
unreasonable.


I hadn't known about the faulty fasteners. But when I was
in the A.F.
there was a whole section of the Navy, A.F., and likely
the Army, that
spent it's time determining and certifying that the proper
bolt was
used in the proper place.

But, of course, they did this from the
"standards" marking on the bolt itself :-(

By the way, Caterpillar Tractor was very perturbed about
falsely
marked "CAT" bolts that were being sold in Singapore -
that were
actually manufactured in Italy.

We became involved as we had done a rebuild on a
Caterpillar 6
cylinder engine and it was impossible to torque the head
bolts. You
kept turning the wrench and the bolts kept stretching :-)


I suspect the unusual head shape of genuine military
Internal Wrenching Bolts is primarily to help insure the
bolt strength and its head-to-shaft radius are within specs
- that is, to help prevent the use of a sub-standard
fastener in a critical application.

Of course, that doesn't mean every fastener with that head
shape will have those same properties. Companies can produce
whatever part they want for use on their own devices. And
derailleur clamp screws are certainly not ultra-strong or
highly stressed. I've replaced stripped ones with garden
variety metric screws and had no issues.

Tom refuses to say what he's imagining about pressure on the
washer, but I think any such imaginings are fantasy.
Unfortunately, I don't think he's got the background to
competently discuss that aspect.


I think Tom (correctly) noted that a V-brake anchor is more
shaped like an 'internal wrenching bolt' (a term he likely
knew from USAF service long ago) than a standard DIN 912 cap
screw.

They are not the same thing, but the general appearance is
similar.

Arguments after that seem contrived to me. Clamping on a
3mm hardened anchor plate means the head shape is
irrelevant. As you note a regular DIN 933 bolt works as well
as a DIN 912 cap screw.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #19  
Old August 23rd 19, 01:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25
Default internal wrenching bolt

On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 8:21:45 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:

But for every web search 'internal wrenching bolt' I get Mil
Spec fasteners priced $15 t $30 each which are a magnitude
or more expensive than a cap screw, even a German cap screw.
The term seems to have special meaning.


The special meaning is that the manufacturer can bill the US DoD $30 for a bolt, when a $0.30 316SS hex cap screw will work just fine.
  #20  
Old August 23rd 19, 03:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 787
Default internal wrenching bolt

On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 3:22:26 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/22/2019 4:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-7, Chalo wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

Tom has a point in that most linear ("V") brake anchors do
not
have cylindrical heads and actually do look more like an
'internal
wrenching bolt':

Tom misses the substantially more important point that you won't find an "internal wrenching bolt" with metric threading, and that functionally the thing that fixes a V-brake's cable is a metric socket head cap screw. Just as a brake pivot bolt is usually a button head socket cap screw whether its head is domed or conical.


Not to be too critical - but it is the HEAD shape that is critical. As all of the illustrations that Jeff published shows - they are available in any threads. Can you explain to me exactly why you believe that the THREAD is what makes an internal wrenching head?

You're sounding more and more like Frank every day. He doesn't even understand that the difference between a taper head screw and a cap screw is. You're joining his club I see.


I have to admit I had never heard the term 'internal
wrenching bolt' until you wrote that.

Given the high profile disasters from counterfeit fasteners
sold to the Air Force and the required specification for
same (material, fit/finish tolerances, plating, hardness
etc) I could well imagine that USAF simply made up a
distinctive head shape to keep stray hardware out of their
system, keep engine mounting bolts separate from brake
system bolts and so on. I don't know that, but it's not
unreasonable.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


That tapered head was made to cover the majority of the washer. Cap head bolts support less of the washer. In our case these are used to provide a lot of support for the cable stops. In this manner to torque on the bolt doesn't bend the washer and place unequal amounts of pressure on the cables so that the edge of the washer cuts the cable. In our electro mechanical computers they were used to support the washers that held the gears since these things were necessarily very narrow in order to have the rather high ratios that gave us very high accuracy. Theoretically we could hit a single building from 20,000 feet but I never saw us bombing from such an altitude.
 




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