#71
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Helmet News
On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 20:40:16 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote: What is the hangup with claiming helmets do not help? Why isn't it enough just to not use a helmet oneself and ignore whatever anyone else is doing? Why isn't it enough just to use a helmet oneself and ignore whatever anyone else is doing? -- Joy Beeson joy beeson at comcast dot net |
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#72
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Helmet News
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 2:40:20 PM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote:
sms wrote: OMG, there have been endless studies, all that show a benefit to helmet usage to some degree. The problem is not a lack of studies, it's that those that are opposed to helmet usage will ALWAYS nitpick some aspect of even the most rigorous study, and proclaim that the results are invalid. What is the hangup with claiming helmets do not help? Why isn't it enough just to not use a helmet oneself and ignore whatever anyone else is doing? First, understand this disagreement has been debated here and in dozens of other forums for decades. Over those years, people who promote or demand helmet use have put out reams of lies and distortions. Example: Stephen M. Scharf, who posts as "sms" claims there is still no evidence that mandating helmets reduces cycling. He sometimes claims that observed decreases (as in Australia and New Zealand) are coincidences, caused by people playing more video games, or by increases in car traffic, or whatever. He ignores the fact that the drops in cycling were quite sudden, and happened exactly when helmets became mandatory; and that telephone surveys confirmed that the helmet law was a major deterrent to cycling. Newer surveys continue to corroborate that fact. Recently, when surveys were done to diagnose the reasons for the failure of Melbourne's bike share scheme, the biggest reason given was the helmet requirement. And this matters to me. I don't think that we should be dissuading people from riding bikes, either by imposing useless restrictions on riders, or by spouting propaganda that makes cycling seem terribly risky. We don't push for helmets for walkers, even though they suffer many more serious or fatal brain injuries than bicyclists. We don't push for helmets for motorists, even though in the U.S., well over 35,000 of them die despite seat belts and air bags. Why on earth should we scare people about dying while bicycling, when in the U.S. there are only about 800 bike fatalities per year, with fewer than half by T.B.I.? (There are about 4500 annual pedestrian deaths in America, with about 40% due to TBI. More pedestrians than bicyclists die per mile traveled.) All this fear mongering is done to sell a plastic product that, despite some cooked research, has brought no detectable improvement in fatalities or concussions. People have wasted millions and millions of dollars on fragile foam hats, and people now believe that every time the styrofoam is dented, it's proof that they made a wise purchase, even a life-saving one. But despite thousands of "It saved my life" stories, there simply has been no corresponding drop in deaths. There has been an _increase_ in bike concussions. That should tell us that most of the "saved my life" or "prevented a concussion" stories must be mistaken. So in summary: When there's nonsense spread about how terribly dangerous it is to ride a bike, and how common brain injury is; about how wonderfully protective a low-standard, expensive and fragile hat is; about how "Danger! Danger!" warnings do no harm; about how mandating weird hats can't possibly discourage riding... Well, sorry, but I respond. - Frank Krygowski |
#73
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Helmet News
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 2:48:08 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 6:56:08 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: My "more careful" still includes 40 mph downhills, riding in groups, drafting, riding in city and suburban traffic, and a bit of riding in the woods, on gravel, etc. But for me, it includes lots and lots of "what if" anticipation and attention to the road surface. What if there's gravel around that downhill bend? What if that motorist tries to push into the roundabout while I'm in the circle? What if that puddle is really a deep pothole? What if the meeting goes late and I have to ride home in the dark? What if that squirrely rider suddenly weaves into my path? What if that mud across the bike trail is really slippery? Except for those who ride blindfolded, most of us DO plan ahead. It's not a binary thing, Jay. There are degrees of planning and levels of skill. Some do it better than others. I think one way to tell who does it better is to count crashes - ideally, crashes per mile. Yes, we might make allowances for riding conditions. Perhaps a crash in a criterium or road race shouldn't count against a person nearly as much. And perhaps if a person is 100% committed to riding in any weather, they should get a bonus. But I've known more than one person who gave up riding because they crashed too much. That tells me there is very likely a bell curve at work here. I try to be at the good end of that curve. Does it equate to slowing down? Only sometimes. Most often it means being observant, knowing how to prepare and be ready in case something comes up. Preparing and being ready may be things like changing lane position (usually further left) and covering the brakes. It means pedaling continuously when approaching a motorist who may pull out, so he doesn't expect me to stop for him. It means looking way ahead to plan the best path through all the potholes, not just the one in front. It means downshifting before a stop so I'm in a good starting gear, and knowing how to start quickly when needed. And so on. I'm not saying you're not a good rider. But I think it's likely that one's crash history is determined by the balance between the risks one takes and one's skill level. I think some people take more risks than their skill level justifies. (Hell, I've seen that for sure.) Above all, if a person has a good riding record, I wouldn't put it off to luck, any more than I'd say LeBron James is just lucky at shooting baskets. - Frank Krygowski |
#74
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Helmet News
Joy Beeson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 20:40:16 +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote: What is the hangup with claiming helmets do not help? Why isn't it enough just to not use a helmet oneself and ignore whatever anyone else is doing? Why isn't it enough just to use a helmet oneself and ignore whatever anyone else is doing? +1 -- duane |
#75
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Helmet News
Joy Beeson wrote:
What is the hangup with claiming helmets do not help? Why isn't it enough just to not use a helmet oneself and ignore whatever anyone else is doing? Why isn't it enough just to use a helmet oneself and ignore whatever anyone else is doing? Personally I don't use a helmet, but isn't that what happens? Who is ranting about helmet use? No one here and no one I know. But perhaps in the road bike and MTB world people do that, what do I know. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
#76
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Helmet News
On 21/06/2018 8:03 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Joy Beeson wrote: What is the hangup with claiming helmets do not help? Why isn't it enough just to not use a helmet oneself and ignore whatever anyone else is doing? Why isn't it enough just to use a helmet oneself and ignore whatever anyone else is doing? Personally I don't use a helmet, but isn't that what happens? Who is ranting about helmet use? No one here and no one I know. But perhaps in the road bike and MTB world people do that, what do I know. In my experience, the ranting goes on mostly here on RBT. In the real world people use helmets or don't. I guess the argument is really about mandatory helmet laws but it becomes a religious discussion here. It's not that difficult to search past posts... |
#77
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Helmet News
Frank Krygowski wrote:
All this fear mongering [...] Perhaps this is an American issue. Here, the streets are filled with people who ride their bikes every day, many several times a day, and very, very few use helmets. Riding a bike is not considered dangerous! The road bike people and the MTB people use helmets but they are a very small minority. Intuitively, I feel like if you ride a road bike at that speed and have an accident involving traffic, that sounds like a very serious situation with or without a helmet, but I think I'd use one anyway. With the MTB people, I don't see why you can't simply trip over a stock, and hit your head into a rock. I don't see why a helmet wouldn't reduce the impact? -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
#78
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On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 08:17:01 -0400, Duane
wrote: On 21/06/2018 8:03 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote: Joy Beeson wrote: What is the hangup with claiming helmets do not help? Why isn't it enough just to not use a helmet oneself and ignore whatever anyone else is doing? Why isn't it enough just to use a helmet oneself and ignore whatever anyone else is doing? Personally I don't use a helmet, but isn't that what happens? Who is ranting about helmet use? No one here and no one I know. But perhaps in the road bike and MTB world people do that, what do I know. In my experience, the ranting goes on mostly here on RBT. In the real world people use helmets or don't. I guess the argument is really about mandatory helmet laws but it becomes a religious discussion here. It's not that difficult to search past posts... True, although I did once have another cyclist demand to know why I wasn't wearing my helmet. It was a cross language thing with him not speaking much English and me not admitting to speak anything :-) I smiled and nodded and he did, upon leaving, tell me that "helmets were much safer" with me smiling and nodding all round the place. I would also say that I've been in crashes severe enough to break bones twice i the past 8 or 9 years and in neither case was my head injured. Laying there with my hip in traction but my head never took a bump :-) |
#79
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Helmet News
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 9:13:45 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 2:48:08 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote: On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 6:56:08 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: My "more careful" still includes 40 mph downhills, riding in groups, drafting, riding in city and suburban traffic, and a bit of riding in the woods, on gravel, etc. But for me, it includes lots and lots of "what if" anticipation and attention to the road surface. What if there's gravel around that downhill bend? What if that motorist tries to push into the roundabout while I'm in the circle? What if that puddle is really a deep pothole? What if the meeting goes late and I have to ride home in the dark? What if that squirrely rider suddenly weaves into my path? What if that mud across the bike trail is really slippery? Except for those who ride blindfolded, most of us DO plan ahead. It's not a binary thing, Jay. There are degrees of planning and levels of skill. Some do it better than others. I think one way to tell who does it better is to count crashes - ideally, crashes per mile. Yes, we might make allowances for riding conditions. Perhaps a crash in a criterium or road race shouldn't count against a person nearly as much. And perhaps if a person is 100% committed to riding in any weather, they should get a bonus. But I've known more than one person who gave up riding because they crashed too much. That tells me there is very likely a bell curve at work here. I try to be at the good end of that curve. Does it equate to slowing down? Only sometimes. Most often it means being observant, knowing how to prepare and be ready in case something comes up.. Preparing and being ready may be things like changing lane position (usually further left) and covering the brakes. It means pedaling continuously when approaching a motorist who may pull out, so he doesn't expect me to stop for him. It means looking way ahead to plan the best path through all the potholes, not just the one in front. It means downshifting before a stop so I'm in a good starting gear, and knowing how to start quickly when needed.. And so on. I'm not saying you're not a good rider. But I think it's likely that one's crash history is determined by the balance between the risks one takes and one's skill level. I think some people take more risks than their skill level justifies. (Hell, I've seen that for sure.) Above all, if a person has a good riding record, I wouldn't put it off to luck, any more than I'd say LeBron James is just lucky at shooting baskets. Oh god, now you're LeBron James. And yes, you are saying that I and everyone else who has crashed more than you is not as good a rider as you. That is the clear and pompous message. Sure, if I spent all my time on the bunny slopes, I would never crash. Regrettably, my world is not a bunny slope -- particularly during fall, winter and spring. The Portland study showed an inverse correlation between experience and injury rate, probably because those who actually ride -- and ride in inclement weather with uncertain traction -- are at more risk. https://tinyurl.com/y86dashy In contrast, the sunny day creep-along riders will have lower injury rates. I am about to go to work in some of the loudest thunder I've heard in 30 years and, of course, pouring rain -- but it's warm-ish rain. After a dry spell, the roads will be slippery where they are not submerged. I am hoping that my super-Frank sonar will help me locate submerged potholes and other obstacles. -- Jay Beattie. |
#80
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Helmet News
On 6/21/2018 8:17 AM, Duane wrote:
On 21/06/2018 8:03 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote: Joy Beeson wrote: What is the hangup with claiming helmets do not help? Why isn't it enough just to not use a helmet oneself and ignore whatever anyone else is doing? Why isn't it enough just to use a helmet oneself and ignore whatever anyone else is doing? Personally I don't use a helmet, but isn't that what happens? Who is ranting about helmet use? No one here and no one I know. But perhaps in the road bike and MTB world people do that, what do I know. In my experience, the ranting goes on mostly here on RBT.Â* In the real world people use helmets or don't. Oh, get real, Duane! How can you pretend that the "ranting" goes on only here? How often have you signed up for an invitational bike ride that did not say "You MUST wear a helmet!"? Are you unaware of the many bike clubs having rules requiring helmets on all rides? Can you enter a bike race anywhere without putting on a helmet? Have you not seen the dozens, perhaps hundreds of "bike safety" publications that begin with "Always wear a helmet"? Many of them even stop there, saying nothing about lights at night, rules of the road, watching for road hazards, etc. Just "Always wear a helmet." And the True Believers here and elsewhere probably never ride without the magic hat; but I can assure you, when I ride I sometimes get "Where's your helmet??" Sometimes it's an honest question, but more often it's an obnoxious attack. The last time I got that, maybe a month ago, it was from a woman who blared her horn trying to get me off the road. And yes, some of the issue is about laws forbidding bicycling without helmets. Helmet skeptics never try to pass laws forbidding helmets; but the helmet fanatics have passed laws in many jurisdictions making it illegal to ride a bike at all without that weird hat, even in the tamest circumstances. Since you're in Canada, Duane: A few years ago, my wife and I were stopped in some tiny New Brunswick town. We had biked from our B&B about three blocks to a restaurant (probably the only one in town). After dinner on that Sunday evening, we biked back by totally quiet, zero traffic residential streets. About a block from our B&B, a policewoman came upon us and hit the cruiser lights. Here's how it went: She: "Where are you from?" Us: "Ohio, in the United States." She: "Don't you know you must have a helmet to ride a bicycle?" Us: "Even ADULTS???" (Disclosu I already knew that.) She: "Yes! That's the law everywhere in Canada!" Me: "No it's not! I _know_ that's not the law in Ontario!" She: "Well, they must have some special law. Helmets are required everywhere else in Canada. Where are you going?" Me: "Our B&B is right there." She: "Well, don't let me see you riding without a helmet." (So what effect do you think this has on the amount of bicycling in that little town?) Oh, and note again: There's never been a cop saying "Hey you! Take off that helmet if you're riding a bike!" -- - Frank Krygowski |
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