Lights = manufacturers moving to non-replaceable batteries

On 2/16/2016 3:51 PM, Barry Beams wrote:
On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 1:46:23 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I've been looking at some lights to supplement my Cygolite Rover II (250 real lumens max) and am noticing something. A lot of manufacturers are moving to non-replaceable batteries in their lights. In a way this is too bad because it means that for long rides of over 2 hours duration you can't carry a spare battery to swap out nor can you use a spare battery when it's really cold out and the internal battery has less capacity. I looked at a SON hub dynamo but at lower speeds it flickerd far too much - in fact it looked more like it was on a strobe setting than on a steady on setting.

It looks like I'll be getting another Cygolite product.

Cheers


@Steve
Your assessment of the distributor to store to retail vs.online selling model sounds like you've been through this first hand. For instance, to add the extra battery included, if the battery costs me $5, then selling direct and keeping my same margins means I only need to add $5 to the cost.

But selling at retail and stores, I need to increase the MSRP by $20.

If I gave up selling through distributors and stores then
If at $135, I would dominate the market if I could put on a sufficient social + web marketing campaign to get the word out there.
~$165 is about the sweet spot where I'm clearly still the best money can buy, and that people will still spend before hitting that $200 over/under price point.
My bike expo and maker faire deals sell well in person at ~$160-ish. For instance I sold 40 lights at Maker Faire last year in two days, at $155 each.

I'm seriously examining taking my sales to a discounted direct sales model only, but the sales volumes would have to be high enough to make up for losing small margin higher quantity sales that would go through distributors.

Long term within 2-4 years, I want to have other companies license my optics for use in their own lights. The outdoors, tactical, and aerospace markets are far larger than bicycle industry, and is where I'm targeting my effort and getting some wins, like with NASA and local police SWAT teams. But these are longer processes than just selling the current product direct to consumer.

How much is FBA (fulfillment by Amazon)? That might be a good middle
ground and give you very wide exposure.

I think selling through shops is a losing proposition for higher-end,
lower volume products. Especially when so many shops are obligated to
sell accessories from Trek or Specialized if the are tied to one bicycle
brand. It doesn't matter if the the product the bicycle manufacture
offers is sub-par, they have to push it. And of course you have stores
like Performance pushing their own brands of Made in China accessories.

Am 16.02.2016 um 16:31 schrieb sms:

A good system would be a dynamo hub charging a USB rechargeable light.
It could not keep up at high power, but at least during the day when
you're only using the strobe, it could be charging the battery from the
dynamo.

You can build a dynamo to USB adapter for about $10.

Certainly not. You know that a dynamo is a 'fixed-power' source not a
'fixed-voltage' source and that therefore it is pretty non-trivial to
keep to the USB spec of 'exactly 5V, at most 500mA'.

You can buy a USB dynamo adapter for $100, and you can build one maybe
for $30 with the circuits downloadable from the internet, and I do not
see much benefit of such a system compared to using standard good
dynamo-driven LED lights: only meaningful use might be an additional
'high beam' that you charge during the day and might switch on at night
for fast downhill sections.

On 2/17/2016 1:21 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 16.02.2016 um 16:31 schrieb sms:

A good system would be a dynamo hub charging a USB rechargeable light.
It could not keep up at high power, but at least during the day when
you're only using the strobe, it could be charging the battery from the
dynamo.

You can build a dynamo to USB adapter for about $10.

Certainly not. You know that a dynamo is a 'fixed-power' source not a
'fixed-voltage' source and that therefore it is pretty non-trivial to
keep to the USB spec of 'exactly 5V, at most 500mA'.

The misconception that a USB port can supply a a maximum of 500mA, or
must supply a maximum of 500mA, is very common. The reality is that a
USB port must supply a _minimum_ of 500mA (though in some cases 100mA is
all that is required).

Even on computers, USB ports don't trip the over-current protection at
exactly 500mA, or even at 501mA. They generally don't trip until about
1A. I.e. from the TI LM3525 Single Port USB Power Switch and
Over-Current Protection: "The current limit threshold is set internally
to allow a minimum of 500 mA through the MOSFET but limit the maximum
current to 1.0A typical." Some controllers have programmable current
limits, i.e. the TI TPS2511 is programmable from 250mA to 2.7A.

But all this is moot when the USB connectors are just being used as a
convenient physical and electrical connection, and the port is never
enumerated at all. The trend of rechargeable devices using a USB jack as
a power connector is for convenience, and is something for which USB was
not originally designed for, though the USB Power Delivery Spec, now
allows USB to provide up to 20A. Qualcomm's Quick-Charge 2.0 spec allows
voltages of up to 20V on the USB port in order to minimize current while
still allowing higher power, and enables very fast charging of mobile
phones.

A buck converter with a wide input voltage range cares only that the
minimum and maximum voltage levels are not exceeded, and that there is
enough current. Once the dynamo voltage reaches the minimum inout level
for the regulator, you get output. The higher the voltage out of the
dynamo, the higher the current out of the regulator.

Some (most?) homebrew dynamo to USB designs just use a bridge rectifier,
a 5V LDO linear regulator, and some capacitors. These do work.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Voltage-Regulated-5-V-Bicycle-Dynamo-Light-USB/.
They are inefficient at higher speeds where the voltage output of the
dynamo can be a lot higher than 6VAC, and you're limited the dynamo's
current output.

Better to substitute an OKI-78SR-5 for the 7805. It has an input range
of 7-36VDC at a maximum of 690mA and an output of 5V up to 1.5A. These
are less than $5. Also better to use a Schottky bridge like the MCC
MB12S, or four Schottky diodes to minimize the losses through the rectifier.

You can build a dynamo to USB converter with only four or five
components, a MCC MB12S, a OKI-78SR-5, and two or three capacitors.

http://power.murata.com/data/power/oki-78sr.pdf
http://www.mccsemi.com/up_pdf/MB12S-MB110S(MBS-1).pdf

The reason for a "hybrid" battery/dynamo system is to combine the
advantages of a dynamo light with the advantages of a battery powered
light. The ability to have high-output even at lower speeds, the benefit
of a daytime front flasher, and the advantage of at least having lower
lumen output when the battery is exhausted.

You don't see many bicycles with dynamo lights in the U.S., but when you
do, the rider almost always has a second light as well (either being
carried somewhere, or mounted on the handlebars). It's necessary for
three reasons:
1) you need a battery powered light for repairs
2) you need a higher power light for places where the output of a dynamo
light is not sufficient
3) higher-power dynamo lights lack a flash mode and front flashers are
the new normal for daytime riding in the U.S., it would be exceedingly
foolish to be riding in the daytime without one because vehicles now
_expect_ bicyclists to have a flashing DRL.

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 8:50:07 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
Snipped
3) higher-power dynamo lights lack a flash mode and front flashers are
the new normal for daytime riding in the U.S., it would be exceedingly
foolish to be riding in the daytime without one because vehicles now
_expect_ bicyclists to have a flashing DRL.

What a crock of El Toro Poo Poo! You DON'T need a flashing front light on a bicycle in normal bright daylight conditions.

Cheers

On 17/02/2016 8:49 AM, sms wrote:
snip

You don't see many bicycles with dynamo lights in the U.S., but when you
do, the rider almost always has a second light as well (either being
carried somewhere, or mounted on the handlebars). It's necessary for
three reasons:
1) you need a battery powered light for repairs
2) you need a higher power light for places where the output of a dynamo
light is not sufficient
3) higher-power dynamo lights lack a flash mode and front flashers are
the new normal for daytime riding in the U.S., it would be exceedingly
foolish to be riding in the daytime without one because vehicles now
_expect_ bicyclists to have a flashing DRL.


Maybe it's a west coast thing but I certainly don't see it in Vermont,
NY or New Hampshire when I'm riding there. Not in the south either but
I'll see in the spring when I go home to visit but last time I was in
NOLA there were none that I could see.

Pretty unusual to see DRLs in Montreal also. Law here requires solid on
white front light for riding at night but nothing about DRLs.

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 11:59:44 PM UTC, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 11:24:55 PM UTC-5, Barry Beams wrote:
On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 1:46:23 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I've been looking at some lights to supplement my Cygolite Rover II (250 real lumens max) and am noticing something. A lot of manufacturers are moving to non-replaceable batteries in their lights. In a way this is too bad because it means that for long rides of over 2 hours duration you can't carry a spare battery to swap out nor can you use a spare battery when it's really cold out and the internal battery has less capacity. I looked at a SON hub dynamo but at lower speeds it flickerd far too much - in fact it looked more like it was on a strobe setting than on a steady on setting.

It looks like I'll be getting another Cygolite product.

Cheers

Some of you guys are way too intense.
You need to ask questions, not make false accusations which are themselves, libelous.
I learned about the Cygo to KingSword relationship at an Interbike meeting with KingSword people. They also like my "hood scoop" leading upper edge design, and their next series of lights had that shape instead of the previous much rounder frontal profile.

Btw since I'm directly educated by lawyers with first hand knowledge on Made in USA labelling requirements, instead of some of you thinking that something must be true because you read it on the internet,
a Ford Mustang, for example, can say Made in USA, with the later specification on the window sticker, "at least 78% domestic content". There are several ways of calculating domestic content. My Oculus says Made in USA "at least 75% domestic content." Its actually 80% now.

Since some of you preach about replaceable batteries for other brands, check out the cost of a replacement proprietary battery for the Cygos or Serfas. Cateye Volt is even worse. Versus $8.50 or less for my Barry Beams branded and warranteed 26650, and $5 or less for any old $18650 which you can use in my Oculus.

A screen capture of your post was sent to Cygolite. Here is part of their reply that they allowed me to post here to clarify things regarding m,anufacture of Cygolite products:

"Thank you for the information about the post regarding our lights. We'd
like to confirm our products are designed and assembled here in the USA
and we have no affiliation with the mentioned company, as falsely stated."

Looks like you are very wrong about where Cygolite products are made.

I don't think so. "No affiliation" means "we're not part of the same legal entity". It doesn't mean "they don't make parts for us for payment on invoice". Before you can reach a wishful conclusion like the one you did, never mind be offensive to Barry about it and accuse him of libel (which is anyway none of your business -- let Cygo look after their own reputation), you need to ask a supplementary question, which is:

"Can you confirm without qualification that none of your components are manufactured by Kingsword."

If you really want to nail this down, ask them, "Please tell me which part of your product is US made by a) value and b) mass (weight)." This avoids avoids them committing common abuses like valuing the sticker at 99% of the wholesale price.

These incidentally are the questions you should have asked in the first instance.

What Cygo told you looks suspiciously like a well-prepared, much-polished weasel in response to a planted/softball question from a fanboy who really, really wants to believe. The only alternative is a depressing lack of sophistication on the part of the questioner. Take your pick about the causes: the end result is the same: we are no wiser about where Cygo lamps are made, except that we're spiralling in on China, with perhaps stickers being stuck on Chinese-made "subassemblies" once they're unpacked Stateside from the container that brought them from Canada.
***
I sympathize with Barry in his travails with Chinese manufacturers. When I licensed high voltage thermionic tube high fidelity amplifier designs to a Japanese manufacturer who had them built in China, the Chinese were amazed and very angry when we would reject whole batches of boards, electronic subassemblies and casework for what they considered mickey mouse reasons but which to us, selling a premium product, were clearly sales-killers, not to mention the maintenance costs if we warrantied sub-standard work, and the possibility that it would kill someone. Your average Chinese subassembly manufacturer and assembler has absolutely no idea of the punctilio required for premium products. When Bafang, which makes motors for bicycles, wanted to sell to European OEMs, they set up a facility in Switzerland and created an entirely separate line, which was based on their standard line, but with the models prefixed by a Q for Quality because they were better built and finished and more often and more rigorously inspected than the standard models. Bafang was open about the reasons: they said it was done because Europeans have a higher expection of quality and finish than the Chinese or Americans will accept.
***
I anyway fail to see why all this kerfuffle about "US-made products" is relevant. US manufacturing was put in the toilet long since by corrupt unions, mindless Democratic politicians, and complaisant, limp Republican pols who didn't know what they stood for. That Americans still have huge engineering and productionizing skills is proven by the fine car from Ford's erstwhile Premium division like the Range Rover and the Volvo and Jaguar and the excellent European Mondeo (I was in one today and asked how much it cost -- superb value for money). It is significant that all of these were designed and built in Mrs Thatcher's Britain, while in the States the workers have to put up with genuinely crappy cars (the last time I spent the shareholders' money on an American car it was on a seven liter and change Ford LTD, which with the police brakes from a cheaper model and after I breathed on the suspension was a superb car for crossing Europe in a day -- Stirling Moss also had one). Those workers did it to themselves via their corrupt unions and unreasonable inflationary wage and benefit demands. The time to care is several decades past. You're crying long tears about a boat that sailed to China long, long since. Americans did it to themselves and now, having ruined the means and the milieu for large-scale home manufacturing, are suddenly demanding, as you're doing, that traders/assemblers prove they are "loyal" (unAmerican Manufacturing Committee anyone? Come back Joe McCarthy, all is forgiven?), as you're doing to Cygo and Barry, leading to the sort of weaseling and lying and fraudulent labelling that Scharfie and Jeff explained upthread. You're not part of the solution, Rideablot; you're part of the problem, and very likely have always been.

Andre Jute
It's true, just not politically correct to say so. I should care? -- Alfred E. Neuman

On Mon, 15 Feb 2016 20:14:33 +0000, Phil W Lee
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann considered Sun, 14 Feb 2016
20:16:03 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On Sun, 14 Feb 2016 22:26:27 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/14/2016 4:46 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I looked at a SON hub dynamo but at lower speeds it flickerd
far too much - in fact it looked more like it was on a strobe
setting than on a steady on setting.

That surprises me. While I don't have a SON hub, I have a Shimano with
about the same number of poles. At even five mile per hour (I just
checked) the flicker is visible,...

According to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flicker_fusion_threshold
the flicker fusion threshold varies with the type of lighting. For
movies and film, it's about 16Hz. For a CRT, it's about 75Hz. For
lighting there's no stated limit. The article notes that "The 100-120
Hz flicker produced by magnetic ballasts is associated with headaches
and eyestrain". It's possible that we don't actually see the LED
flicker above the flicker fusion threshold, but are still affected by
a higher frequency flicker.

The trouble with any of those numbers is that there is a very large
variation between individuals.
I know people who can use a CRT computer monitor all day at 60Hz
without any problem, and a few of those would probably not be bothered
down to under 50Hz, but others who need over 100Hz to avoid headaches
- in one extreme case over 120Hz.
And yes, different phosphor coatings have different levels of
persistence as well, which complicates matters (high persistence
allows a lower frequency, but "smears" on fast movement, whereas low
persistence gives very sharp movement, but needs a higher refresh rate
to be perceived as "flicker-free").
But this was in a corporate setting , where all the monitors were the
same make and model, so I think it's safe to say that the phosphor was
the same on all of them.
I'm sure that similar variations apply to lighting.

Yep. Many years ago, I did some human factors work for a manufacturer
of CRT terminals. Flicker was part of the problem. As you note,
sensitivity varies with the individual. During testing, I found that
contrast has a big effect on flicker perception. If the room was
dark, and the CRT was bright, flicker was perceivable below 100Hz.
Turn on the room lights, and the same individuals could only see
flicker below about 50Hz. I suspect this might have an effect on
flicker perception when riding at night.

At the time, I also dug out some old radio physics articles on flicker
in two areas. One was the Nipkow rotating disk type television
system, where flicker was controlled by the disk RPM. The other was
when various CRT based schemes for TV broadcast were being developed
and frame rate had a big effect on transmission bandwidth. Both tests
involved placing a volunteer in front of a simulated display, varying
the frame rate, and asking perceptual type questions. There were no
longer term tests for headaches. The movie tests resulted in 25Hz
while the TV tests went for 30Hz based on halving the perceived
threshold. I can possibly dig out the articles if anyone is
interested.

My guess(tm) is that most complaints about flicker are from either LED
house or street lighting, that runs at 50/60Hz:
http://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2012/jul/characterizing-and-minimizing-led-flicker-in-lighting-applications
or at the beat frequency between such 50/60Hz lighting, and whatever
the dynamo is running. The resulting stroboscopic effect will
certainly be visible and irritating. It can happen even with battery
operated LED dimming, which I've found on my Bike Planet headlight to
operate at about 1KHz. Although the frequency difference is high,
it's still possible to produce a visible beat frequency. Apparently,
1KHz isn't good enough for some cyclists:
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/do-any-lights-not-use-pwm-900381.html

Perception is everything.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 2/17/2016 9:31 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 11:59:44 PM UTC, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 11:24:55 PM UTC-5, Barry Beams wrote:
On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 1:46:23 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I've been looking at some lights to supplement my Cygolite Rover II (250 real lumens max) and am noticing something. A lot of manufacturers are moving to non-replaceable batteries in their lights. In a way this is too bad because it means that for long rides of over 2 hours duration you can't carry a spare battery to swap out nor can you use a spare battery when it's really cold out and the internal battery has less capacity. I looked at a SON hub dynamo but at lower speeds it flickerd far too much - in fact it looked more like it was on a strobe setting than on a steady on setting.

It looks like I'll be getting another Cygolite product.

Cheers

Some of you guys are way too intense.
You need to ask questions, not make false accusations which are themselves, libelous.
I learned about the Cygo to KingSword relationship at an Interbike meeting with KingSword people. They also like my "hood scoop" leading upper edge design, and their next series of lights had that shape instead of the previous much rounder frontal profile.

Btw since I'm directly educated by lawyers with first hand knowledge on Made in USA labelling requirements, instead of some of you thinking that something must be true because you read it on the internet,
a Ford Mustang, for example, can say Made in USA, with the later specification on the window sticker, "at least 78% domestic content". There are several ways of calculating domestic content. My Oculus says Made in USA "at least 75% domestic content." Its actually 80% now.

Since some of you preach about replaceable batteries for other brands, check out the cost of a replacement proprietary battery for the Cygos or Serfas. Cateye Volt is even worse. Versus $8.50 or less for my Barry Beams branded and warranteed 26650, and $5 or less for any old $18650 which you can use in my Oculus.

A screen capture of your post was sent to Cygolite. Here is part of their reply that they allowed me to post here to clarify things regarding m,anufacture of Cygolite products:

"Thank you for the information about the post regarding our lights. We'd
like to confirm our products are designed and assembled here in the USA
and we have no affiliation with the mentioned company, as falsely stated."

Looks like you are very wrong about where Cygolite products are made.

I don't think so. "No affiliation" means "we're not part of the same legal entity". It doesn't mean "they don't make parts for us for payment on invoice". Before you can reach a wishful conclusion like the one you did, never mind be offensive to Barry about it and accuse him of libel (which is anyway none of your business -- let Cygo look after their own reputation), you need to ask a supplementary question, which is:

"Can you confirm without qualification that none of your components are manufactured by Kingsword."

If you really want to nail this down, ask them, "Please tell me which part of your product is US made by a) value and b) mass (weight)." This avoids avoids them committing common abuses like valuing the sticker at 99% of the wholesale price.

These incidentally are the questions you should have asked in the first instance.

What Cygo told you looks suspiciously like a well-prepared, much-polished weasel in response to a planted/softball question from a fanboy who really, really wants to believe. The only alternative is a depressing lack of sophistication on the part of the questioner. Take your pick about the causes: the end result is the same: we are no wiser about where Cygo lamps are made, except that we're spiralling in on China, with perhaps stickers being stuck on Chinese-made "subassemblies" once they're unpacked Stateside from the container that brought them from Canada.
***
I sympathize with Barry in his travails with Chinese manufacturers. When I licensed high voltage thermionic tube high fidelity amplifier designs to a Japanese manufacturer who had them built in China, the Chinese were amazed and very angry when we would reject whole batches of boards, electronic subassemblies and casework for what they considered mickey mouse reasons but which to us, selling a premium product, were clearly sales-killers, not to mention the maintenance costs if we warrantied sub-standard work, and the possibility that it would kill someone. Your average Chinese subassembly manufacturer and assembler has absolutely no idea of the punctilio required for premium products. When Bafang, which makes motors for bicycles, wanted to sell to European OEMs, they set up a facility in Switzerland and created an entirely separate line, which was based on their standard line, but with the models prefixed by a Q for Quality because they were better built and finished and more ofte
n and more rigorously inspected than the standard models. Bafang was open about the reasons: they said it was done because Europeans have a higher expection of quality and finish than the Chinese or Americans will accept.
***
I anyway fail to see why all this kerfuffle about "US-made products" is relevant. US manufacturing was put in the toilet long since by corrupt unions, mindless Democratic politicians, and complaisant, limp Republican pols who didn't know what they stood for. That Americans still have huge engineering and productionizing skills is proven by the fine car from Ford's erstwhile Premium division like the Range Rover and the Volvo and Jaguar and the excellent European Mondeo (I was in one today and asked how much it cost -- superb value for money). It is significant that all of these were designed and built in Mrs Thatcher's Britain, while in the States the workers have to put up with genuinely crappy cars (the last time I spent the shareholders' money on an American car it was on a seven liter and change Ford LTD, which with the police brakes from a cheaper model and after I breathed on the suspension was a superb car for crossing Europe in a day -- Stirling Moss also had one). Those
workers did it to themselves via their corrupt unions and unreasonable inflationary wage and benefit demands. The time to care is several decades past. You're crying long tears about a boat that sailed to China long, long since. Americans did it to themselves and now, having ruined the means and the milieu for large-scale home manufacturing, are suddenly demanding, as you're doing, that traders/assemblers prove they are "loyal" (unAmerican Manufacturing Committee anyone? Come back Joe McCarthy, all is forgiven?), as you're doing to Cygo and Barry, leading to the sort of weaseling and lying and fraudulent labelling that Scharfie and Jeff explained upthread. You're not part of the solution, Rideablot; you're part of the problem, and very likely have always been.

Andre Jute
It's true, just not politically correct to say so. I should care? -- Alfred E. Neuman


Much interesting material there, but I simply called Cygo,
asked for the GM and got a prompt polite response that the
product components are USA sourced. I have no reason to
doubt him but there's no airtight evidence of that either.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 3:45:46 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/17/2016 9:31 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 11:59:44 PM UTC, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 11:24:55 PM UTC-5, Barry Beams wrote:
On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 1:46:23 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I've been looking at some lights to supplement my Cygolite Rover II (250 real lumens max) and am noticing something. A lot of manufacturers are moving to non-replaceable batteries in their lights. In a way this is too bad because it means that for long rides of over 2 hours duration you can't carry a spare battery to swap out nor can you use a spare battery when it's really cold out and the internal battery has less capacity. I looked at a SON hub dynamo but at lower speeds it flickerd far too much - in fact it looked more like it was on a strobe setting than on a steady on setting.

It looks like I'll be getting another Cygolite product.

Cheers

Some of you guys are way too intense.
You need to ask questions, not make false accusations which are themselves, libelous.
I learned about the Cygo to KingSword relationship at an Interbike meeting with KingSword people. They also like my "hood scoop" leading upper edge design, and their next series of lights had that shape instead of the previous much rounder frontal profile.

Btw since I'm directly educated by lawyers with first hand knowledge on Made in USA labelling requirements, instead of some of you thinking that something must be true because you read it on the internet,
a Ford Mustang, for example, can say Made in USA, with the later specification on the window sticker, "at least 78% domestic content". There are several ways of calculating domestic content. My Oculus says Made in USA "at least 75% domestic content." Its actually 80% now.

Since some of you preach about replaceable batteries for other brands, check out the cost of a replacement proprietary battery for the Cygos or Serfas. Cateye Volt is even worse. Versus $8.50 or less for my Barry Beams branded and warranteed 26650, and $5 or less for any old $18650 which you can use in my Oculus.

A screen capture of your post was sent to Cygolite. Here is part of their reply that they allowed me to post here to clarify things regarding m,anufacture of Cygolite products:

"Thank you for the information about the post regarding our lights. We'd
like to confirm our products are designed and assembled here in the USA
and we have no affiliation with the mentioned company, as falsely stated."

Looks like you are very wrong about where Cygolite products are made.

I don't think so. "No affiliation" means "we're not part of the same legal entity". It doesn't mean "they don't make parts for us for payment on invoice". Before you can reach a wishful conclusion like the one you did, never mind be offensive to Barry about it and accuse him of libel (which is anyway none of your business -- let Cygo look after their own reputation), you need to ask a supplementary question, which is:

"Can you confirm without qualification that none of your components are manufactured by Kingsword."

If you really want to nail this down, ask them, "Please tell me which part of your product is US made by a) value and b) mass (weight)." This avoids avoids them committing common abuses like valuing the sticker at 99% of the wholesale price.

These incidentally are the questions you should have asked in the first instance.

What Cygo told you looks suspiciously like a well-prepared, much-polished weasel in response to a planted/softball question from a fanboy who really, really wants to believe. The only alternative is a depressing lack of sophistication on the part of the questioner. Take your pick about the causes: the end result is the same: we are no wiser about where Cygo lamps are made, except that we're spiralling in on China, with perhaps stickers being stuck on Chinese-made "subassemblies" once they're unpacked Stateside from the container that brought them from Canada.
***
I sympathize with Barry in his travails with Chinese manufacturers. When I licensed high voltage thermionic tube high fidelity amplifier designs to a Japanese manufacturer who had them built in China, the Chinese were amazed and very angry when we would reject whole batches of boards, electronic subassemblies and casework for what they considered mickey mouse reasons but which to us, selling a premium product, were clearly sales-killers, not to mention the maintenance costs if we warrantied sub-standard work, and the possibility that it would kill someone. Your average Chinese subassembly manufacturer and assembler has absolutely no idea of the punctilio required for premium products. When Bafang, which makes motors for bicycles, wanted to sell to European OEMs, they set up a facility in Switzerland and created an entirely separate line, which was based on their standard line, but with the models prefixed by a Q for Quality because they were better built and finished and more ofte
n and more rigorously inspected than the standard models. Bafang was open about the reasons: they said it was done because Europeans have a higher expection of quality and finish than the Chinese or Americans will accept.
***
I anyway fail to see why all this kerfuffle about "US-made products" is relevant. US manufacturing was put in the toilet long since by corrupt unions, mindless Democratic politicians, and complaisant, limp Republican pols who didn't know what they stood for. That Americans still have huge engineering and productionizing skills is proven by the fine car from Ford's erstwhile Premium division like the Range Rover and the Volvo and Jaguar and the excellent European Mondeo (I was in one today and asked how much it cost -- superb value for money). It is significant that all of these were designed and built in Mrs Thatcher's Britain, while in the States the workers have to put up with genuinely crappy cars (the last time I spent the shareholders' money on an American car it was on a seven liter and change Ford LTD, which with the police brakes from a cheaper model and after I breathed on the suspension was a superb car for crossing Europe in a day -- Stirling Moss also had one). Those
workers did it to themselves via their corrupt unions and unreasonable inflationary wage and benefit demands. The time to care is several decades past. You're crying long tears about a boat that sailed to China long, long since. Americans did it to themselves and now, having ruined the means and the milieu for large-scale home manufacturing, are suddenly demanding, as you're doing, that traders/assemblers prove they are "loyal" (unAmerican Manufacturing Committee anyone? Come back Joe McCarthy, all is forgiven?), as you're doing to Cygo and Barry, leading to the sort of weaseling and lying and fraudulent labelling that Scharfie and Jeff explained upthread. You're not part of the solution, Rideablot; you're part of the problem, and very likely have always been.

Andre Jute
It's true, just not politically correct to say so. I should care? -- Alfred E. Neuman


Much interesting material there, but I simply called Cygo,
asked for the GM and got a prompt polite response that the
product components are USA sourced. I have no reason to
doubt him but there's no airtight evidence of that either.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Aw, sheet, Muzi, by bringing simple common sense (appreciated only by simpletons!) to the table, you're ruined a good flamewar that Ridealot started.

Seriously, if the GM of Cygo tells a respected dealer, who's following a public discussion and is likely to repeat the statement publicly, that the components are US made, as far as I'm concerned that's the end of the story. I take the view that people are entitled to a presumption of truthfulness.

It is wickedly ironic that Ridealot, who accuses business people of being crooks on no evidence whatsoever except his permanent conspiracy mindset, is now on the other side..

Andre Jute
All hail Andrew Muzi for performing a public service. Remember what happened to Telemachus!

On 2/17/2016 7:45 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/17/2016 9:31 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 11:59:44 PM UTC, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 11:24:55 PM UTC-5, Barry Beams wrote:
On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 1:46:23 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I've been looking at some lights to supplement my Cygolite Rover II
(250 real lumens max) and am noticing something. A lot of
manufacturers are moving to non-replaceable batteries in their
lights. In a way this is too bad because it means that for long
rides of over 2 hours duration you can't carry a spare battery to
swap out nor can you use a spare battery when it's really cold out
and the internal battery has less capacity. I looked at a SON hub
dynamo but at lower speeds it flickerd far too much - in fact it
looked more like it was on a strobe setting than on a steady on
setting.

It looks like I'll be getting another Cygolite product.

Cheers

Some of you guys are way too intense.
You need to ask questions, not make false accusations which are
themselves, libelous.
I learned about the Cygo to KingSword relationship at an Interbike
meeting with KingSword people. They also like my "hood scoop"
leading upper edge design, and their next series of lights had that
shape instead of the previous much rounder frontal profile.

Btw since I'm directly educated by lawyers with first hand knowledge
on Made in USA labelling requirements, instead of some of you
thinking that something must be true because you read it on the
internet,
a Ford Mustang, for example, can say Made in USA, with the later
specification on the window sticker, "at least 78% domestic
content". There are several ways of calculating domestic content.
My Oculus says Made in USA "at least 75% domestic content." Its
actually 80% now.

Since some of you preach about replaceable batteries for other
brands, check out the cost of a replacement proprietary battery for
the Cygos or Serfas. Cateye Volt is even worse. Versus $8.50 or
less for my Barry Beams branded and warranteed 26650, and $5 or less
for any old $18650 which you can use in my Oculus.

A screen capture of your post was sent to Cygolite. Here is part of
their reply that they allowed me to post here to clarify things
regarding m,anufacture of Cygolite products:

"Thank you for the information about the post regarding our lights. We'd
like to confirm our products are designed and assembled here in the USA
and we have no affiliation with the mentioned company, as falsely
stated."

Looks like you are very wrong about where Cygolite products are made.

I don't think so. "No affiliation" means "we're not part of the same
legal entity". It doesn't mean "they don't make parts for us for
payment on invoice". Before you can reach a wishful conclusion like
the one you did, never mind be offensive to Barry about it and accuse
him of libel (which is anyway none of your business -- let Cygo look
after their own reputation), you need to ask a supplementary question,
which is:

"Can you confirm without qualification that none of your components
are manufactured by Kingsword."

If you really want to nail this down, ask them, "Please tell me which
part of your product is US made by a) value and b) mass (weight)."
This avoids avoids them committing common abuses like valuing the
sticker at 99% of the wholesale price.

These incidentally are the questions you should have asked in the
first instance.

What Cygo told you looks suspiciously like a well-prepared,
much-polished weasel in response to a planted/softball question from a
fanboy who really, really wants to believe. The only alternative is a
depressing lack of sophistication on the part of the questioner. Take
your pick about the causes: the end result is the same: we are no
wiser about where Cygo lamps are made, except that we're spiralling in
on China, with perhaps stickers being stuck on Chinese-made
"subassemblies" once they're unpacked Stateside from the container
that brought them from Canada.
***
I sympathize with Barry in his travails with Chinese manufacturers.
When I licensed high voltage thermionic tube high fidelity amplifier
designs to a Japanese manufacturer who had them built in China, the
Chinese were amazed and very angry when we would reject whole batches
of boards, electronic subassemblies and casework for what they
considered mickey mouse reasons but which to us, selling a premium
product, were clearly sales-killers, not to mention the maintenance
costs if we warrantied sub-standard work, and the possibility that it
would kill someone. Your average Chinese subassembly manufacturer and
assembler has absolutely no idea of the punctilio required for premium
products. When Bafang, which makes motors for bicycles, wanted to sell
to European OEMs, they set up a facility in Switzerland and created an
entirely separate line, which was based on their standard line, but
with the models prefixed by a Q for Quality because they were better
built and finished and more ofte
n and more rigorously inspected than the standard models. Bafang was
open about the reasons: they said it was done because Europeans have a
higher expection of quality and finish than the Chinese or Americans
will accept.
***
I anyway fail to see why all this kerfuffle about "US-made products"
is relevant. US manufacturing was put in the toilet long since by
corrupt unions, mindless Democratic politicians, and complaisant, limp
Republican pols who didn't know what they stood for. That Americans
still have huge engineering and productionizing skills is proven by
the fine car from Ford's erstwhile Premium division like the Range
Rover and the Volvo and Jaguar and the excellent European Mondeo (I
was in one today and asked how much it cost -- superb value for
money). It is significant that all of these were designed and built in
Mrs Thatcher's Britain, while in the States the workers have to put up
with genuinely crappy cars (the last time I spent the shareholders'
money on an American car it was on a seven liter and change Ford LTD,
which with the police brakes from a cheaper model and after I breathed
on the suspension was a superb car for crossing Europe in a day --
Stirling Moss also had one). Those
workers did it to themselves via their corrupt unions and unreasonable
inflationary wage and benefit demands. The time to care is several
decades past. You're crying long tears about a boat that sailed to China
long, long since. Americans did it to themselves and now, having ruined
the means and the milieu for large-scale home manufacturing, are
suddenly demanding, as you're doing, that traders/assemblers prove they
are "loyal" (unAmerican Manufacturing Committee anyone? Come back Joe
McCarthy, all is forgiven?), as you're doing to Cygo and Barry, leading
to the sort of weaseling and lying and fraudulent labelling that
Scharfie and Jeff explained upthread. You're not part of the solution,
Rideablot; you're part of the problem, and very likely have always been.

Andre Jute
It's true, just not politically correct to say so. I should care? --
Alfred E. Neuman


Much interesting material there, but I simply called Cygo, asked for the
GM and got a prompt polite response that the product components are USA
sourced. I have no reason to doubt him but there's no airtight evidence
of that either.

They'd have a hard time sourcing U.S.A. made Li-Ion cells. There used to
be one U.S. manufacturer of them but I'm pretty sure they are gone now.
I suppose that Tesla could dedicate some of their new battery factory to
making 18650 and 26650 cells, but that's unlikely.

Cree LEDs are made in the U.S. though they are also doing packaging in
China.

Building the PCBs in the U.S. would not be difficult, nor would
machining and molding be difficult. Even if it cost 3x the amount for
those pieces, the value of those items is so low that it would not
increase the manufacturing cost by more than a few dollars.

For some high-value items, like cars, there's some nationalism when it
comes to purchases. I think most people would rather buy a Toyota built
in the U.S. than a Ford built in Mexico, regardless of the domestic
content (which does not include labor). And the domestic content laws
are so incredibly screwed up that about the best you can do is to look
at the final assembly plant.

Nationalism went out the window for bicycles and bicycle stuff a long
time ago.

The progression of bicycle sourcing was:

Italy=Good, Japan=Bad Japan=Good, Taiwan=Bad Taiwan=Good, China=Bad

Now no one thinks twice about buying a bicycle imported from China, and
Japanese and Taiwanese bicycles have become boutique items, sold at high
prices.

The move to China for contract manufacturing means that there's plenty
of manufacturing capacity that enables companies like Bikes Direct to
resurrect old brand names and cut out both the U.S. "manufacturer" and
the local bike shop, and it allows companies like QBP to get into the
complete bike business. A bicycle that retails for $1000 has about $600
worth of mark-up between the factory and the consumer. Bikesdirect has
made a nice little business out of splitting the difference with the
consumer that is willing to do some minor assembly. LBSes complain about
consumer direct sales of non-department store bicycles, but a smart shop
owner could capitalize on Bikes Direct with a similar model that Tire
Rack uses for car tires.