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#11
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internal wrenching bolt
On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-7, Chalo wrote:
AMuzi wrote: Tom has a point in that most linear ("V") brake anchors do not have cylindrical heads and actually do look more like an 'internal wrenching bolt': Tom misses the substantially more important point that you won't find an "internal wrenching bolt" with metric threading, and that functionally the thing that fixes a V-brake's cable is a metric socket head cap screw. Just as a brake pivot bolt is usually a button head socket cap screw whether its head is domed or conical. Not to be too critical - but it is the HEAD shape that is critical. As all of the illustrations that Jeff published shows - they are available in any threads. Can you explain to me exactly why you believe that the THREAD is what makes an internal wrenching head? You're sounding more and more like Frank every day. He doesn't even understand that the difference between a taper head screw and a cap screw is. You're joining his club I see. |
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#12
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internal wrenching bolt
On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 10:41:56 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, 22 August 2019 13:21:26 UTC-4, Chalo wrote: AMuzi wrote: Tom has a point in that most linear ("V") brake anchors do not have cylindrical heads and actually do look more like an 'internal wrenching bolt': Tom misses the substantially more important point that you won't find an "internal wrenching bolt" with metric threading, and that functionally the thing that fixes a V-brake's cable is a metric socket head cap screw. Just as a brake pivot bolt is usually a button head socket cap screw whether its head is domed or conical. All the drawings I've seen of V-brakes simply call the thing a cable anchor bolt. If AK went into a bike shop and asked for a V-brake cable anchor bolt He very likely be asked what kind of bolt head. However, a hex-head bolt usually will fit even if the original bolt was X head. The PURPOSE of the bolt is not the name of the head type. |
#13
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internal wrenching bolt
On 8/22/2019 4:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-7, Chalo wrote: AMuzi wrote: Tom has a point in that most linear ("V") brake anchors do not have cylindrical heads and actually do look more like an 'internal wrenching bolt': Tom misses the substantially more important point that you won't find an "internal wrenching bolt" with metric threading, and that functionally the thing that fixes a V-brake's cable is a metric socket head cap screw. Just as a brake pivot bolt is usually a button head socket cap screw whether its head is domed or conical. Not to be too critical - but it is the HEAD shape that is critical. As all of the illustrations that Jeff published shows - they are available in any threads. Can you explain to me exactly why you believe that the THREAD is what makes an internal wrenching head? You're sounding more and more like Frank every day. He doesn't even understand that the difference between a taper head screw and a cap screw is. You're joining his club I see. I have to admit I had never heard the term 'internal wrenching bolt' until you wrote that. Given the high profile disasters from counterfeit fasteners sold to the Air Force and the required specification for same (material, fit/finish tolerances, plating, hardness etc) I could well imagine that USAF simply made up a distinctive head shape to keep stray hardware out of their system, keep engine mounting bolts separate from brake system bolts and so on. I don't know that, but it's not unreasonable. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#14
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internal wrenching bolt
On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 17:22:20 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/22/2019 4:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-7, Chalo wrote: AMuzi wrote: Tom has a point in that most linear ("V") brake anchors do not have cylindrical heads and actually do look more like an 'internal wrenching bolt': Tom misses the substantially more important point that you won't find an "internal wrenching bolt" with metric threading, and that functionally the thing that fixes a V-brake's cable is a metric socket head cap screw. Just as a brake pivot bolt is usually a button head socket cap screw whether its head is domed or conical. Not to be too critical - but it is the HEAD shape that is critical. As all of the illustrations that Jeff published shows - they are available in any threads. Can you explain to me exactly why you believe that the THREAD is what makes an internal wrenching head? You're sounding more and more like Frank every day. He doesn't even understand that the difference between a taper head screw and a cap screw is. You're joining his club I see. I have to admit I had never heard the term 'internal wrenching bolt' until you wrote that. Given the high profile disasters from counterfeit fasteners sold to the Air Force and the required specification for same (material, fit/finish tolerances, plating, hardness etc) I could well imagine that USAF simply made up a distinctive head shape to keep stray hardware out of their system, keep engine mounting bolts separate from brake system bolts and so on. I don't know that, but it's not unreasonable. I hadn't known about the faulty fasteners. But when I was in the A.F. there was a whole section of the Navy, A.F., and likely the Army, that spent it's time determining and certifying that the proper bolt was used in the proper place. But, of course, they did this from the "standards" marking on the bolt itself :-( By the way, Caterpillar Tractor was very perturbed about falsely marked "CAT" bolts that were being sold in Singapore - that were actually manufactured in Italy. We became involved as we had done a rebuild on a Caterpillar 6 cylinder engine and it was impossible to torque the head bolts. You kept turning the wrench and the bolts kept stretching :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#15
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internal wrenching bolt
On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 3:22:26 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/22/2019 4:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-7, Chalo wrote: AMuzi wrote: Tom has a point in that most linear ("V") brake anchors do not have cylindrical heads and actually do look more like an 'internal wrenching bolt': Tom misses the substantially more important point that you won't find an "internal wrenching bolt" with metric threading, and that functionally the thing that fixes a V-brake's cable is a metric socket head cap screw. Just as a brake pivot bolt is usually a button head socket cap screw whether its head is domed or conical. Not to be too critical - but it is the HEAD shape that is critical. As all of the illustrations that Jeff published shows - they are available in any threads. Can you explain to me exactly why you believe that the THREAD is what makes an internal wrenching head? You're sounding more and more like Frank every day. He doesn't even understand that the difference between a taper head screw and a cap screw is. You're joining his club I see. I have to admit I had never heard the term 'internal wrenching bolt' until you wrote that. Given the high profile disasters from counterfeit fasteners sold to the Air Force and the required specification for same (material, fit/finish tolerances, plating, hardness etc) I could well imagine that USAF simply made up a distinctive head shape to keep stray hardware out of their system, keep engine mounting bolts separate from brake system bolts and so on. I don't know that, but it's not unreasonable. Logically, an internal wrenching bolt is every bolt that is not an external wrenching bolt. It's like a giant venn diagram that would have socket head cap screws in the middle. Here, study this: http://navybmr.com/study%20material/...14014A_ch6.pdf Note: "View C shows an internal-wrenching bolt. Both the countersunk-head bolt and the internal-wrenching bolt have hexagonal recesses (six-sided holes) in their heads. They are tightened and loosened by use of appropriately sized Allen wrenches." "Socket-Head — Socket-head machine screws are designed to be screwed into tapped holes by internal wrenching. They are used in applications that require high-strength precision products, compactness of the assembled parts, or sinking of the head into holes." Please have a full report on my desk by 0400! -- Jay Beattie. |
#16
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internal wrenching bolt
On 8/22/2019 7:05 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 17:22:20 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 8/22/2019 4:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-7, Chalo wrote: AMuzi wrote: Tom has a point in that most linear ("V") brake anchors do not have cylindrical heads and actually do look more like an 'internal wrenching bolt': Tom misses the substantially more important point that you won't find an "internal wrenching bolt" with metric threading, and that functionally the thing that fixes a V-brake's cable is a metric socket head cap screw. Just as a brake pivot bolt is usually a button head socket cap screw whether its head is domed or conical. Not to be too critical - but it is the HEAD shape that is critical. As all of the illustrations that Jeff published shows - they are available in any threads. Can you explain to me exactly why you believe that the THREAD is what makes an internal wrenching head? You're sounding more and more like Frank every day. He doesn't even understand that the difference between a taper head screw and a cap screw is. You're joining his club I see. I have to admit I had never heard the term 'internal wrenching bolt' until you wrote that. Given the high profile disasters from counterfeit fasteners sold to the Air Force and the required specification for same (material, fit/finish tolerances, plating, hardness etc) I could well imagine that USAF simply made up a distinctive head shape to keep stray hardware out of their system, keep engine mounting bolts separate from brake system bolts and so on. I don't know that, but it's not unreasonable. I hadn't known about the faulty fasteners. But when I was in the A.F. there was a whole section of the Navy, A.F., and likely the Army, that spent it's time determining and certifying that the proper bolt was used in the proper place. But, of course, they did this from the "standards" marking on the bolt itself :-( By the way, Caterpillar Tractor was very perturbed about falsely marked "CAT" bolts that were being sold in Singapore - that were actually manufactured in Italy. We became involved as we had done a rebuild on a Caterpillar 6 cylinder engine and it was impossible to torque the head bolts. You kept turning the wrench and the bolts kept stretching :-) I suspect the unusual head shape of genuine military Internal Wrenching Bolts is primarily to help insure the bolt strength and its head-to-shaft radius are within specs - that is, to help prevent the use of a sub-standard fastener in a critical application. Of course, that doesn't mean every fastener with that head shape will have those same properties. Companies can produce whatever part they want for use on their own devices. And derailleur clamp screws are certainly not ultra-strong or highly stressed. I've replaced stripped ones with garden variety metric screws and had no issues. Tom refuses to say what he's imagining about pressure on the washer, but I think any such imaginings are fantasy. Unfortunately, I don't think he's got the background to competently discuss that aspect. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#17
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internal wrenching bolt
On 8/22/2019 6:41 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 3:22:26 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 8/22/2019 4:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-7, Chalo wrote: AMuzi wrote: Tom has a point in that most linear ("V") brake anchors do not have cylindrical heads and actually do look more like an 'internal wrenching bolt': Tom misses the substantially more important point that you won't find an "internal wrenching bolt" with metric threading, and that functionally the thing that fixes a V-brake's cable is a metric socket head cap screw. Just as a brake pivot bolt is usually a button head socket cap screw whether its head is domed or conical. Not to be too critical - but it is the HEAD shape that is critical. As all of the illustrations that Jeff published shows - they are available in any threads. Can you explain to me exactly why you believe that the THREAD is what makes an internal wrenching head? You're sounding more and more like Frank every day. He doesn't even understand that the difference between a taper head screw and a cap screw is. You're joining his club I see. I have to admit I had never heard the term 'internal wrenching bolt' until you wrote that. Given the high profile disasters from counterfeit fasteners sold to the Air Force and the required specification for same (material, fit/finish tolerances, plating, hardness etc) I could well imagine that USAF simply made up a distinctive head shape to keep stray hardware out of their system, keep engine mounting bolts separate from brake system bolts and so on. I don't know that, but it's not unreasonable. Logically, an internal wrenching bolt is every bolt that is not an external wrenching bolt. It's like a giant venn diagram that would have socket head cap screws in the middle. Here, study this: http://navybmr.com/study%20material/...14014A_ch6.pdf Note: "View C shows an internal-wrenching bolt. Both the countersunk-head bolt and the internal-wrenching bolt have hexagonal recesses (six-sided holes) in their heads. They are tightened and loosened by use of appropriately sized Allen wrenches." "Socket-Head — Socket-head machine screws are designed to be screwed into tapped holes by internal wrenching. They are used in applications that require high-strength precision products, compactness of the assembled parts, or sinking of the head into holes." Please have a full report on my desk by 0400! -- Jay Beattie. Yes that's logical for plain English. But for every web search 'internal wrenching bolt' I get Mil Spec fasteners priced $15 t $30 each which are a magnitude or more expensive than a cap screw, even a German cap screw. The term seems to have special meaning. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#18
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internal wrenching bolt
On 8/22/2019 7:19 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/22/2019 7:05 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 17:22:20 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 8/22/2019 4:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-7, Chalo wrote: AMuzi wrote: Tom has a point in that most linear ("V") brake anchors do not have cylindrical heads and actually do look more like an 'internal wrenching bolt': Tom misses the substantially more important point that you won't find an "internal wrenching bolt" with metric threading, and that functionally the thing that fixes a V-brake's cable is a metric socket head cap screw. Just as a brake pivot bolt is usually a button head socket cap screw whether its head is domed or conical. Not to be too critical - but it is the HEAD shape that is critical. As all of the illustrations that Jeff published shows - they are available in any threads. Can you explain to me exactly why you believe that the THREAD is what makes an internal wrenching head? You're sounding more and more like Frank every day. He doesn't even understand that the difference between a taper head screw and a cap screw is. You're joining his club I see. I have to admit I had never heard the term 'internal wrenching bolt' until you wrote that. Given the high profile disasters from counterfeit fasteners sold to the Air Force and the required specification for same (material, fit/finish tolerances, plating, hardness etc) I could well imagine that USAF simply made up a distinctive head shape to keep stray hardware out of their system, keep engine mounting bolts separate from brake system bolts and so on. I don't know that, but it's not unreasonable. I hadn't known about the faulty fasteners. But when I was in the A.F. there was a whole section of the Navy, A.F., and likely the Army, that spent it's time determining and certifying that the proper bolt was used in the proper place. But, of course, they did this from the "standards" marking on the bolt itself :-( By the way, Caterpillar Tractor was very perturbed about falsely marked "CAT" bolts that were being sold in Singapore - that were actually manufactured in Italy. We became involved as we had done a rebuild on a Caterpillar 6 cylinder engine and it was impossible to torque the head bolts. You kept turning the wrench and the bolts kept stretching :-) I suspect the unusual head shape of genuine military Internal Wrenching Bolts is primarily to help insure the bolt strength and its head-to-shaft radius are within specs - that is, to help prevent the use of a sub-standard fastener in a critical application. Of course, that doesn't mean every fastener with that head shape will have those same properties. Companies can produce whatever part they want for use on their own devices. And derailleur clamp screws are certainly not ultra-strong or highly stressed. I've replaced stripped ones with garden variety metric screws and had no issues. Tom refuses to say what he's imagining about pressure on the washer, but I think any such imaginings are fantasy. Unfortunately, I don't think he's got the background to competently discuss that aspect. I think Tom (correctly) noted that a V-brake anchor is more shaped like an 'internal wrenching bolt' (a term he likely knew from USAF service long ago) than a standard DIN 912 cap screw. They are not the same thing, but the general appearance is similar. Arguments after that seem contrived to me. Clamping on a 3mm hardened anchor plate means the head shape is irrelevant. As you note a regular DIN 933 bolt works as well as a DIN 912 cap screw. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#19
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internal wrenching bolt
On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 8:21:45 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
But for every web search 'internal wrenching bolt' I get Mil Spec fasteners priced $15 t $30 each which are a magnitude or more expensive than a cap screw, even a German cap screw. The term seems to have special meaning. The special meaning is that the manufacturer can bill the US DoD $30 for a bolt, when a $0.30 316SS hex cap screw will work just fine. |
#20
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internal wrenching bolt
On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 3:22:26 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/22/2019 4:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-7, Chalo wrote: AMuzi wrote: Tom has a point in that most linear ("V") brake anchors do not have cylindrical heads and actually do look more like an 'internal wrenching bolt': Tom misses the substantially more important point that you won't find an "internal wrenching bolt" with metric threading, and that functionally the thing that fixes a V-brake's cable is a metric socket head cap screw. Just as a brake pivot bolt is usually a button head socket cap screw whether its head is domed or conical. Not to be too critical - but it is the HEAD shape that is critical. As all of the illustrations that Jeff published shows - they are available in any threads. Can you explain to me exactly why you believe that the THREAD is what makes an internal wrenching head? You're sounding more and more like Frank every day. He doesn't even understand that the difference between a taper head screw and a cap screw is. You're joining his club I see. I have to admit I had never heard the term 'internal wrenching bolt' until you wrote that. Given the high profile disasters from counterfeit fasteners sold to the Air Force and the required specification for same (material, fit/finish tolerances, plating, hardness etc) I could well imagine that USAF simply made up a distinctive head shape to keep stray hardware out of their system, keep engine mounting bolts separate from brake system bolts and so on. I don't know that, but it's not unreasonable. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 That tapered head was made to cover the majority of the washer. Cap head bolts support less of the washer. In our case these are used to provide a lot of support for the cable stops. In this manner to torque on the bolt doesn't bend the washer and place unequal amounts of pressure on the cables so that the edge of the washer cuts the cable. In our electro mechanical computers they were used to support the washers that held the gears since these things were necessarily very narrow in order to have the rather high ratios that gave us very high accuracy. Theoretically we could hit a single building from 20,000 feet but I never saw us bombing from such an altitude. |
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